[Sailor Steve]

Thursday, September 18, 1919

PARIS PEACE CONFERENCE

M Pichon’s Room, Quai d’Orsay, Paris, 11:00

Meeting of the Heads of Delegations of the Five Great Powers.


M. Pichon says that M Clemenceau would not be able to attend the meeting and that he had asked him to make his excuses for him.


1. M Pichon said that he thinks the question should be examined at once. He does not think it necessary to read the two letters which Mr. Barnes had sent to M Clemenceau on September 12 and September 17.

Mr Polk said that Mr Barnes had concluded his letter of September 12 by saying that, as M. Clemenceau had learned on the preceding day, Mr. Polk had refused to involve his Government, although on the previous day he had given both M Clemenceau and Mr Barnes to understand that this accomplishment was within the range of possibility. He does not believe that this statement is quite correct. He had talked that morning with M Clemenceau, who agrees with him. He does not think that it is the duty of the American Government to invite the German and Austrian delegates to attend the Conference at Washington. He thinks that if the Council maintains its resolution of September 11, and if the German and Austrian delegates were invited to take part in the work of the Congress, the American Government would be entirely prepared to facilitate their voyage and accord the necessary passport facilities, in order that these delegates can go to Washington in anticipation of being invited to attend the Conference. Mr Barnes has not exactly understood him when he said that the American Government are prepared to invite the delegates.

M Pichon says that the American Government is ready to facilitate the journey of the delegates and that the American Government will inform the two countries in question.

Mr Polk says that the American Government will do this if the Council entrusts them with this task and they will not do it on their own initiative. When the question had previously been discussed, the Italian delegate had raised the question of an invitation. M Clemenceau had energetically refused to agree that this invitation should be sent in the name of the Council and Mr Balfour and he had held the same view. What Mr Barnes asked was that the American Government take the responsibility for this invitation and communicate it to the German and Austrian delegates. He felt that this could only be done if the American Government were requested by the Council to do so.

M Pichon says that Mr Polk had stated what had occurred. The Conference had rejected the proposal of S Scialoja and had taken the resolution which was still in force. The question now is whether the American Government will consent to inform the German and Austrian delegates that they can go to Washington, that the necessary arrangements for the journey would be made and that they should await the decision of the Congress at Washington, which alone was able to decide as to whether or not they are to be admitted.

Mr Polk says that he does not wish to continue a discussion which concerns only a question of form. He is ready to inform the German and Austrian delegates unofficially in the name of the American Government, that they will receive every facility for their journey. He thinks the time might be saved if Mr Barnes, Mr Gompers and their French and Italian colleagues informed the German and Austrian delegates unofficially that they would undoubtedly be permitted to participate in the Conference.

Sir Eyre Crowe says that he agrees with Mr Polk that it was simply a question of form. He desired to say, however, that Mr Barnes, in his letter of the 12th September, proposed simply that the decision taken by the Council on the preceding day be communicated to the German and Austrian Governments through the medium of the Secretariat General.

M Berthelot points out that it had been said that the notification in question should be communicated unofficially. Any communication from the Secretariat General will, of necessity, be official.

Mr Polk said that the American Delegation are prepared to make this communication, if they were directed by the Council to do so.

S Scialoja said that he thinks it would be desirable to add to the communication that the American Government were prepared to facilitate the journey of the delegates, who should go to Washington before the opening of the Congress, in order that if they are permitted to participate, the work of the Congress should not be delayed. He considers it important that the workmen of the Allied and Associated Countries should be able to say to their colleagues that the Council had not wished to make this invitation official, but that it has taken every precaution unofficially to ensure its decision being communicated to the German and Austrian delegates.

(It is agreed that the American Delegation should be requested in the name of the Conference to communicate to the German and Austrian Delegations the decision of September 11, 1919, regarding the admission of German and Austrian delegates to the International Labor Congress at Washington.)


2. M Pichon says that on the preceding day General Weygand had been asked to prepare a text of a note to be addressed to the German Delegation.

General Weygand then reads the draft of the note.

Mr Polk says that the note provides for the evacuation not only of German units, but also of individual Germans, who, after being demobilized, had joined Russian units. He thinks that the Allied and Associated Powers will be taking a risk in making a demand which the German Government might not be able to fulfill. He does not know what the United States Government will be able to do if a situation arises where American citizens had enlisted in Mexican and Cuban units. He feels considerable doubt as to the legal obligations of the Germans in this matter.

General Weygand says that he has received documentary proof to show that the German Government encouraged enrollment of Germans in Russian military units, and paid them by giving them land in Russia. This land did not belong to the German Government and the position of that Government was clearly illegal. General Gough was present and could give the Council much interesting information.

Mr Polk says that he has also received the same information as to the action of the German Government. He thinks that action, such as has been described, could be provided against in the future. But he does not know whether the Council could demand that the Germans now there could be given up. It is a complicated legal question and he would be very glad to hear the views of M Berthelot and M Fromageot.

M Berthelot said that entire companies had passed into the Russian Army. The draft could however be modified, so that note would be taken of Mr Polk’s remarks.

Mr Polk said that the question was one of international law, so far as facts were concerned. Mr Paderewski had shown him documents which prove that these acts were abetted by the War Office at Berlin. He is satisfied with General Weygand’s draft in many respects, but he thinks the text too broad.

M Pichon asks Mr Polk whether he will be prepared to accept the draft in principle. It will be given to M Fromageot, who will revise it from a legal point of view.

Mr Polk says he is prepared to do this, if M Fromageot collaborates with Mr James Brown Scott.

Sir Eyre Crowe asks whether the military authorities think that the threat in the last paragraph of the note was strong enough to have the desired effect.

Marshal Foch replied that he does not think so. It is the fourth communication on this subject which had been made to the German Government. He sees no reason why it should be treated differently from the others. He suggests that the Council hear the opinion of General Gough.

Mr Polk asks whether Marshal Foch thinks that the threat to use Polish troops would have the desired effect.

Marshal Foch says that it is not only the question of the use of Polish troops; that the Allied Governments should bring pressure to bear with all their power and all their troops. Thus, there would be a beginning of action and the Allied and Associated Powers would be quite ready to march forward if the necessity therefor should arise.

Mr Polk says that there is a threat of military measures in the last lines of the draft note. There are objections to sending this fourth note, and he thinks that the end desired can be accomplished by bringing economic pressure to bear. He is ready on his part to inform the German bankers that they will not be permitted to borrow money in the United States.

Marshal Foch says that he has nothing to say in regard to this suggestion.

(At this moment General Gough enters the room.)

M Pichon says that the Council would be grateful if General Gough expresses his views on the subject of the Baltic Provinces.

General Gough says that in his opinion the greatest danger in Northern Russia is the German danger. It was far more serious than the danger of Bolshevism. There is no doubt that there was a military plot in this region, and that General von der Goltz was at the head of it. The plan consists in colonizing the Baltic States and raising a strong Russo-German Army, which would be outside of the territory of the Allies, and, in a certain degree, independent of the German Government. The persons responsible for this movement aimed at joining certain Russian parties, who are represented by General Yudenitch, or if not by General Yudenitch himself, then by persons surrounding him. A great many people were ready to accept the German authority, as they considered it a means of regaining their rights and privileges at Petrograd, and in the surrounding regions. The German authorities do not hesitate to make promises to these people in this sense. If the Allies permit this force to become constituted, the first result will be destruction of the happiness and liberties of the people of the Baltic Provinces. Then the independence of Finland would be threatened. If the Allies permit this plot to succeed, a series of murders and fighting and a state of tyranny will result, in the Baltic Provinces and perhaps in Russia. These peoples, instead of being given peace, will be given a sword. There was also a great danger that this Russo-German force would some day be used against the Allies themselves. It is not impossible, in view of the demobilization of the Allies, that the Russo-German forces will outnumber the Allied forces in a few years, and a very grave menace for Europe would consequently result. He believes that the Allied and Associated Governments will insist upon the immediate withdrawal of the German Military Government and of the German forces. It will next be necessary to establish order and to lend assistance to the Governments of the Baltic Provinces, not only in giving them money, but in lending money, to let them pay for the goods which they would need from the Allied and Associated Powers. In other words, commerce should be restored. The Baltic peoples are rich enough to pay. He adds that the peoples of the Baltic Provinces are well disposed toward the Allies. They differ very radically from the German and Russian population as well as from their own aristocracy, the Baltic barons, who are the descendants of the former German conquerors. The great middle class population is well disposed toward the Entente and had a cordial hatred of Germany. If the Allies assisted them in organizing, there will be a barrier, not only against Germany, but against Bolshevism as well. These people were radicals and democrats, but have no liking for Bolshevism. They will not accept Bolshevism, unless they are overrun by Germany or deserted by the Allies. In the latter event, they would undoubtedly prefer Bolshevism to German rule. If the Allied and Associated Powers establish peace and restore the prosperity of the Baltic peoples, it will be possible to give these peoples a free hand as regards Central Russia, and even to authorize them, if they wish it, to make peace. The Bolshevik danger is nowhere more threatening than in the interior of Russia, and the populations of these districts are desirous of resuming trade relations with the Baltic populations. Such relations will have a desirable effect.

Sir Eyre Crowe says that the question before the Conference is to consider the best means of compelling the German Government to withdraw its troops from the Baltic Provinces. It had been said that the German authorities favored the enrollment of their demobilized soldiers in Russian units. He wishes to know what power the German Government had over the army of General von der Goltz, and its commander. He questions whether Germany has really disarmed. He asks whether, if the demobilization should take place on the spot, it will
not facilitate enlistments into Russian units.

General Gough replies that the army of General von der Goltz will obey the orders of its commander. It is not a fact that the German Government has no authority over these troops, nor that they had favored demobilization on the spot and filled the country with military workmen. The Letts will murder these workmen, if they are left alone. The Germans in Latvia are soldiers. They are not demobilized, and obey the orders of General von der Goltz. They can impose themselves on this region only by force. It had been intended to found colonies of these men in the Baltic Provinces, but this had not as yet been done.

Sir Eyre Crowe asked whether the orders of General von der Goltz will also be obeyed by isolated soldiers in Russian units.

General Gough says that he believes that they will. He holds this opinion on account of a similar case, which had occurred previously. When the Germans had evacuated Riga, they had provoked numerous conflicts. There existed at that time a Landwehr battalion composed of 9000 men, of whom 5000 were Germans. The Commander, Fletcher, was a German, as were most of his officers. In spite of protest from certain persons in the Baltic Provinces, it had been possible to send Fletcher, his officers and men, to Mitau, to join their army, and Fletcher himself had returned to East Prussia. Today this Landwehr battalion is commanded by a British officer, Colonel Young, and there is not a single German in it. There is nothing to be feared on that side. It will be enough if the Germans left the country and the Lettish Government were thoroughly installed, so as to be able to ward against any dangers. There is no doubt of the fact that no German civilian can remain in these regions after the German army has left. They will be massacred by the population immediately.

Mr Polk asks whether the situation in Estonia and Lithuania is different.

General Gough says that Lithuania has received more assistance from the Allies and is in a position to restore herself more rapidly. Estonia, on the other hand, had been abandoned to the Germans for many months.

Mr Polk asks General Gough what he thinks would be the effect if the Allies used Polish troops to force the Germans to evacuate the Baltic Provinces.

General Gough replies that the use of Polish troops would lead to great confusion in the country and there would be ceaseless fighting. In his opinion, it would be advisable to search for other means, for the Allies ran the risk of seeing the Poles defeated and Poland reconquered by Germany. It is necessary to seek means of establishing peace and not of provoking new wars.

Mr Polk asks General Gough whether he thinks that economic pressure could be brought to bear.

General Gough replies that he thinks this could be done, but both economic and moral pressure should be used at Berlin. If the German Government acts in good faith and really desires to withdraw these troops, there is nothing to prevent the evacuation of the Baltic Provinces. At the moment, the German Government is really waiting to see which is the stronger, the Peace Conference at Paris, or General von der Goltz. There is no doubt that a plot exists and that the German Government were the masters of its fate, for the German Government is in a position to recall General von der Goltz, if they wish to do so.

Mr Matsui asks how large the German forces in question are.

General Gough replies that it is difficult to give the exact numbers. The Germans had organized a sort of military cordon which prevented contact with the populations of the regions which the Germans occupied. He believes that the army was composed of from 40,000 to 100,000 men. He believes that the latter figure is too high, but he is not sure. He calls attention to the fact that the German forces in the Baltic Provinces are supplied by a railway crossing East Prussia and terminating at Mitau. It would be a simple matter to stop this traffic and thereby endanger the rationing of the German forces. On the other hand, the evacuation of the German troops could be effected by way of Riga, although the Germans alleged that this was impossible. In the Libau district there were five German ships, which could be used for this purpose.

Mr Polk says that there are also at New York a number of German ships, which would be available.

Mr Matsui asks whether there would be a danger of Bolshevism in these regions after the Germans have withdrawn.

General Gough says that this danger would not exist, because the population was anti-Bolshevist, and, furthermore, because the Bolsheviks were anxious to conclude peace with the Baltic Provinces, and were to recognize their independence up to a certain point. In any event, the Baltic Provinces are able to defend themselves by force of arms.

Sir Eyre Crowe says that if the German troops were dependent upon East Prussia for their supplies, the situation would improve after the ratification of the Peace Treaty, which provided for the occupation of Memel and the neighboring districts by Allied troops. The Treaty also provides for Inter-Allied occupation of Allenstein. The army of General von der Goltz would consequently find itself isolated and without liaison with East Prussia, for it can communicate only with a small part of East Prussia, which would itself be isolated. He expected that the treaty would be ratified in about three weeks’ time and suggested that it might be advisable to await the ratification of the Peace Treaty.

General Gough says that this is the case, but that General von der Goltz is not a person who would ignore these facts, and it is quite likely that he has availed himself of the delay by organizing stocks of provisions and munitions which would enable him to maintain himself for several months. It would be preferable to act immediately, for delay gave the Germans two advantages:

In the first place, it constantly diminishes the moral influence of the Allied and Associated Governments in the country, by showing that the decisions of the Conference were not obeyed; in the second place, it gives the Germans time to prepare an offensive, if they intended to make one, and to accumulate all that is necessary for this operation.

(M Pichon thanks General Gough for his statements and General Gough then withdraws.)

M Pichon says that he had received the amendments prepared by M Berthelot based upon the observations of Mr. Polk.

M Berthelot says that the article concerning the Germans isolated in the Russian forces could be changed so as to read as follows:

“mais encore à tous les militaires allemands en groupe ou même isolés, qui sur la suggestion ou avec l’appui des autorités allemandes, ont nominalement pris du service …”

(“but also to all German military, in groups or isolated, who upon the suggestion or with the approval of the German authorities, have nominally taken service …”)

Sir Eyre Crowe asked whether it was proposed that this text be adopted. He found himself in a somewhat delicate situation, for the original proposal concerning the evacuation of the Baltic Provinces had come from his Prime Minister. It was Mr Lloyd George who had proposed that Polish troops be utilized. After these proposals had been made, it had been decided that a note should be prepared in this sense. The information, which had been given that day, showed that it would not be advisable to utilize Polish troops. The situation therefore was now quite different. If the Allied and Associated Governments do not add a threat and are not prepared to carry it out, the ultimatum will not be effective. Under these circumstances, he hesitates to agree to its being dispatched. He asks whether it will not be more advisable to write a note to the German Government, saying that the Allied and Associated Powers do not believe the arguments which the German Government had used, that these Governments know that the German Government are in a position to insist upon the evacuation being effected, and that they are convinced that the German Government can carry it out. The German Government should be further informed that as they have not effected the evacuation nor paid any attention to the previous notes of the Council, the Allied and Associated Governments propose to sever all commercial relations with them and to decide upon other measures of a similar nature. In his opinion, it is advisable to make no further demands, but to put the German Government face to face with a fait accompli. Before deciding upon this course, it will be necessary for all the Governments to agree as to the steps which they were prepared to take. So far as he is concerned, he will be glad to consult his Government, for it was probable that there would be complications, so far as interrupting certain steps, which were already being taken, such as the repatriation of prisoners of war, was concerned, and he was not certain that the British Government would agree to the imposition of the blockade. If a decision were taken after forty-eight hours, the members of the Council would have an opportunity to consult their Governments and they could then decide upon the action to be taken.

Mr Polk said that in awaiting this decision, he will confer with members of the American Delegation and have it made known to Baron von Lersner at Versailles that the American Government would suspend all financial agreements.

(It is decided to postpone the decision concerning the dispatch of a Note to the German Government, relative to the Evacuation of the Baltic Provinces, for 48 hours, in order to permit the various Delegates to consult their Governments as to the various means of pressure which could be brought to bear.)

(At this point Marshal Foch and General Weygand withdraw.)

3
3. M Pichon said that the question had been raised on the preceding day and that Mr Polk had then asked that it be postponed until the following day.

M Tardieu reads the draft resolution which he had prepared, which is worded as follows:

“It is decided that the Bulgarian Government evacuate Western Thrace and the Strumitza Loop. General Franchet d’Esperey will give the necessary instructions for the evacuation and for the occupation of the evacuated territory by Greek troops, (in the region of Xanthi and Gumuldjina) and for the occupation of the remaining territory by Allied troops.”

Mr Polk says that he believes that the line goes too far. Xanthi and Gumuldjina are beyond the line. He cannot agree to have Greek troops occupy regions other than those which were to be attributed to them by the Peace Treaty.

M Tardieu says that he is of the same opinion.

Mr Polk said that General Bliss and the American Delegation believe that the proposal is a dangerous one and that it will lead to incidents similar to those which had occurred at Smyrna. He thinks that trouble in this region is bound to occur and that the Allied Governments do not have the troops at their disposal, which it will be necessary to send there. He objects to the entire proceeding and wishes to protest and he will take no responsibility for what might happen for there will be no American troops in that country. He proposes that in the first place the territory should be occupied by French troops and that the Greek occupation should take place after the French occupation.

M Tardieu says that General Franchet d’Esperey, whom he had consulted, does not believe that trouble would result. He thinks, however, that the text of the draft resolution should be altered so as to be satisfactory to Mr Polk.

Mr Polk says that General Chretien holds the same view that he does. So far as he is concerned he can only accept the proposal with the reserve already expressed and because of the fact that no American troops are to be sent. He asks whether it was proposed to maintain the local administration.

Sir Eyre Crowe thinks it would be inadvisable for the Council to bind themselves, for the Bulgarians might refuse to take the responsibility.

Mr Polk suggests that the matter be referred to the Central Territorial Committee.

M Tardieu says that he proposes to suppress the last two lines of his proposition, from the words “by Greek troops”, and to add a second paragraph, which would be worded as follows:

“This occupation will be undertaken first by Allied troops, who will be replaced by Greek troops in the zone indicated on the map enclosed herewith. The local administration will be continued.”

Sir Eyre Crowe asks whether the words “by Allied troops” means that Greek troops would participate equally in the occupation of the other zone.

M Tardieu says that this is not meant and that he refers to troops of the principal Allied and Associated Powers.

S Scialoja says that it should be clearly understood that occupation by Greek troops is to be limited to the zone in question, and that these troops would not participate with the troops of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers in the occupation of the other zone.

Mr Polk says that it was important that the line should be definitely established before it is brought to the attention of the military authorities.

M Tardieu says that this matter could be left to the Committee.

(After a short discussion, in the course of which Mr Polk renews his reservation and declares that the proportion of Greek troops appears to him too great in proportion to that of the Allied troops, the following resolution is adopted:

1) It was decided that the Bulgarian Government should evacuate Western Thrace and the Strumitza Loop. General Franchet d’Esperey should give the necessary instructions for this evacuation and for the occupation of the evacuated territory.

2) The occupation should be effected by Allied troops.

3) These troops might be Greek in the zone indicated in the map, attached herewith, when the Commander in Chief should consider it possible; the rest of Western Thrace should be occupied by Allied troops, other than Greek troops.

4) The local administration will be continued.)


4. M Pichon says that the Conditions of Peace would be delivered to the Bulgarian Delegation on the following day at the Quai d’Orsay at 10:30.

Mr Polk says that representatives of the American Press had asked him whether they would be admitted to this ceremony.

M Pichon says that the meeting will be different from those which had taken place with the German and Austrian Delegates. It had not been anticipated that representatives of the Press would be present. It had been intended to transmit the conditions of peace to the Bulgarians through the medium of M Dutasta, the Secretary General of the Conference, without any ceremony of any kind. M. Stancioff, the Secretary of the Bulgarian Delegation, had said that he thought this procedure somewhat uncomplimentary to the Bulgarian Delegation. The Supreme Council had then decided that the delivery of the Conditions of Peace should take place at the Quai d’Orsay in the presence of the Council.

Mr Polk says that he is willing to accept the opinion of the majority, but he wishes to place himself upon record as saying that he believes that the Conference had throughout shown a tendency to ignore the presence of the other Delegations. He knows that the heads of some of these Delegations feel that they have been ignored. The Delegation of the Serb-Croat-Slovene State and other Delegations particularly interested, feel that the matter is one which concerns them very closely and that they should be present at the ceremony.

M Pichon says that it will be possible to invite the Head of each of the Delegations.

(After a short discussion, it is decided to invite to the Ceremony of the Delivery of the Conditions of Peace to the Bulgarian Delegation:

Two Representatives of the Five Principal Allied and Associated Powers, and one Representative of each of the other Allied Powers who were signatories of the Treaty.

It is also decided that Representatives of the Press should be authorized to be present at the Meeting and that there should be five Representatives of each of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers and two of the other Powers.)

(The meeting then adjourns.)