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Old 10-07-18, 12:50 PM   #10871
CaptBones
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Originally Posted by gap View Post
Thank you very much for your replies. What I get from the text above is that commercial vessels are lesser bound to etiquette than naval ones, but though with a certein degree of flexibility relative to the actual hoisting point (stern fantail, signal flag yardam, mainmast gaff or truck), the ensign / national flag is alway to be found in the aft part of the ship and it is never flown from the foremast (when present). Are my conclusions correct?

Essentially "yes"...but in a ship with the primary superstructure and bridge amidships, the national flag/ensign is almost as likely to be displayed at sea from the mainmast. Tankers and bulk carriers are frequently the exception; they generally have a large superstructure aft with crew's quarters and it's not a long walk to the fantail, so the flag/ensign might be flown there when at sea. Again, just as often a matter of the Master's choice and convenience and I don't think either placement would be "wrong" for the sim. Most commercial vessels don't have a "foremast" per se; they typically have Kingposts, goal-post cranes and jib-crane poles or even just a seperate pole/mast for mounting the masthead light (the range light being on the mainmast).

So a yardam (at the mainmast I suppose), is the right spot for house flag hoisting. Does port/starboard make any difference in this case?

Well, the starboard yardarm is the "senior" position for any flags/pennants displayed. I'd suspect that would be where a proud crew would choose to fly their house flag.

I am especially interested in house flags because in the Flags of the World website I found drawings of the flags used by many SS companies during the 30s-40s, and many pictures of real (used) flags at the website of the National Maritime Museum of Greenwich (they belong mostly to British shipping companies, but there are also flags from other parts of the world).
I think that adding house flags to in-game ships would be nice for creating more variety and for easing the ship identification, but I am not sure that in real wartime practice, allied ships in convoys would have flown those flags especially in open seas. I know that at some point of the war most shipping companies dispensed with their distinctive colors, funnel markings, and anything else could identify them (including house flags probably), but what I have read in several modeller forums, this process was not as universal and as quick as one might think. I would be curiois to know your opinion on this respect too.

In wartime it is generally a good idea to make it as hard as possible for your enemy to find or identify you. Now, if you're a neutral vessel and you think that both/all warring sides are going to respect International Law as well as each other's, and their own, Prize Regulations, I suspect you would at least try initially to make yourself as readily identifiable as possible. Once that quaint romantic notion of "civilized" warfare wears off...it's out come the paint cans and down come the flags...be as unidentifiable as you can for as long as you can. Plus, in convoy, you do not want any "miscellaneous" flags flying that could possibly be mistaken for a signal in the air...signal flags and flashing lights are the primary and sometimes only allowed means of communication in the convoy.

Yes, I knew that already. Nice tradition, but unfortunately this is not something we can simulate in game.

Yeah, not at all practical in a wartime convoy either.

Okay, that's clear. Commissioning pennants too are something I have had in mind for a long time, but at the moment I am more interested in broad pennants flown aboard Commodore / Escort Commander ships in convoys. In game, as in reality, those ships have a special role / behaviour / position within the convoy, and I think it would be nice and useful being able to identify them during convoy battles.

Yeah...great idea! To be clear...a USN Broad pennant is the personal command pennant of an officer, not a Flag Officer, in command of a Division of BB's, CV's or CA's/CL's or a designated Force, Flotilla/Group, or Squadron of ships or craft of any type (which would include a convoy itself and the ships in a convoy escort force, although the escort commander could be flying a Burgee pennant instead). A Burgee pennant indicates command of a Division of ships or craft other than BB's, CV's or CA's/CL's. Flag Officers obviously display their personal flag in their flagship, when in command of any group of ships. If a ship of that type were escorting a convoy, you would possibly see a Flag Officer's personal flag displayed.

In the USN, Broad pennants are white swallow-tail shaped with dark blue stripes along the top and bottom of the fly (same as the Flotilla pennant in the RN, but the blue is darker); Burgee pennants are narrower swallow-tail shaped and have red stripes along the top and bottom fly (not equivalent to the RN Division pennant). The use of Roman numerals and Arabic numerals is specific, but probably too much so for this discussion (or use in the sim).

In the RN, the Flotilla pennant is white, swallow-tail shaped with light blue stripes along the top and bottom of the fly. The Squadron pennant is squared with colored quadrants; light blue in the upper-left, yellow in the upper-right, red in the lower-right, and white in the lower-left (as viewed with the hoist to the left). Division pennant is squared with horizontal stripes; red, white, blue, and yellow, from top to bottom. If the convoy commander (not the escort commander) is RN, he might even display a RFA Commodore's pennant; dark-blue swallow-tail with a "gold" anchor in the middle, surrounded by a circle of "gold" line (rope, to the landlubbers out there).

Definitely yes, thanks again for taking the time to answer in such a detail my (silly) questions
There are no silly questions...sometimes silly answers though.
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