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Letum · 11-14-08, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

I disagree, since tectonic action is an event we can observe directly, we can install laser senosrs and measure the movemnt, and surface tension, and height shifts of different layers etc. Evotultiohn however is a theoretical construct that we cannot directly observe, only indirectly make conclusions about. What we see and observe, is just change, wether that chnage has a purpose, or is just a random adding and deleting of features, or mybe even not that, but something totally different, we cannot say - it is subject to our interpretation only. Tectonic movement however we must not conclude - we can see, measure and experience it directly.

We can measure earthquakes. We can measure the movement of the crust. We can
measure pressures in the crust, observe earthquakes and volcanoes.

The theory we use to explain these phenomena is plate tectonics.

We can not, however, go out in to the field, find the theory of plate tectonics and
observe it. It does not have a physical existence. We can only observe the
phenomena that have lead us to the theory of plate tectonics.

Two tourists get into a London cab as ask to see the university of London. The
cabby takes them to Kings college. The tourists complain that they have already
seen Kings College; they want to see the University of London, not Kings
College. The cabby then takes them to Heythorpe College, The Royal Veterinary
College, The London Business School and all the other Colleges, but the tourists
still complain that they want to see the University, not all these Collages.

They will never see the University of London because although it comprises of
several physically existing colleges bound together by a common idea, the
University is not a physically existing thing.

Likewise, both evolution and plate tectonics comprise of physical observations
bound together by supranational ideas, the theories them selves are not
physically existing things.

No, you throw two things into one box that are not the same. We say that the air is warming, because we feel and directly experience the air is warming. We say the ground is object to tectonic movement of plates, or tectonic activity, "tectonic" referring to continental plate movement. We say so becasue we can directly observe it, althoug using sensitive sensors and measuring devices, but it is a direct observation we make. However, we do not directly observe evolution, we can't, since the term evolution not so much means just changes of genetic designs, but assumes there is a special purpose, an meaningful intention behind the changes: to make a species fitter. but this "behind" is our interpretation, our assumption, we conclude on it just because we have formed according theories. That there are tectonic plates moving we know for sure, but if there is the direction and meaning of evolution that we interpret into the term, is a hypothesis only. That'S why "tectonics" have much more substance than "evolution", and that'S why I called evolution a theoretical constuct and a meta-term (a headline for several possible sub-hypothesis about it's why and how). the first we can directly monitor, measure, see and experience. The second we can't, we just interpret it into it (and sometimes become aware of designs that violate our theory but still make sense). Even wether or not it makes sense to think in any meta-category of change, like "evolution", we cannot say for sure. To do so just fits our way of putting our observations into an artificial order - and that we call science: sorting observations into our arbitrary orders like miniatures on a shelf. Tectonics also is science in this meaning, but the quality of the observation of tectonic movement or the feeling of air warming up, and our assumptions about evolution - are completely different.

Bunkum!

"Purpose", "direction" and "meaning" are terms that have no place in
discussion of natural processes.
The "purpose" of evolution is no more to make the spices fitter than the
"purpose" of gravity is to collect dense objects together.

The theory of plate tectonics is just as much reasoned speculation as to the
processes mechanisms we can not directly observe as evolution is.

The same applies to any process as processes are not physically existing
things that we can measure or directly observe.

Even simple physics theories that dictate the movement of a Newton Cradle are
ideas that we create.
We see one ball hit the other balls in the cradle and the ball at the far end fly up,
but we can not observe the process of transfered momentum because it is not a
thing that exists outside of our minds.