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Originally Posted by Skybird
I would keep two things separate, the (now dead) beacon of democracy project of the (now dead neocon) US, and the far more modest goals proclaimed by the europeans going into Afghanistan initially, and separately from the US operations. And last but not least it lies in american repsonsibility that the situation nafter the initial kick-out of the Taleban detoriated again, for the US left Afghanistan to itself again too soon, and too weak. That crippled all goals the europeans intiially had, by encouraging the Taleban to come back in strength.
I always called it a mistake of NATO to goi into Afghanistan. I alwys called it a mistake for Germany to go into afguhnaistan, for those idiotic historic reasons they have given, concering WWI and how close the history of Germany and Afghanistan always has been tied, bullsh!t.
The political establishement has no realsitic vision for Afghnaistan, and it planlessly stumbles around in blindness, hopiung for some fair cleaning the situation for them. Either
a.) the principle of absolute reaslism takles over the poltical decision-making and there is a clear willingness to call this a war and defining clear conditions for what is considered to be a win, and under what conditions bare being brought hokme again, then eventually, dspite the folly of the whole operation I am willing to accept an unlimited effort of doing what is needed to wage that war (but I doubt that Germany has the logistical capacity and that the BW is financed well-enough to maintain such a huge mission: we talk of clear and open war on almost the other side of the planet), and then still I am notz sure the war can be won, for a war in Afghnaistan in my view necessarily includes more or less war in and with Pakistan as well;
or b.) the troops pull out and are brought home. Since the current german psoitions is a mixture of refusing to see reality and dancing on eggs, I demand the immediate and complete withdrawal of the BW forces. I am not willing to risk the lives of men and women in the Bundeswehr for nothing more than this crappy political conception - better the absence of any realistic conception - that currently form thiscarricature of a government's posture on the Afghan issue.
How schizophrenic the german view of things is you can see in their absurd, hilarious rules of engagement. A symptom the naval operation at the Somali coats alöso is suffering from, pirates are quoted with saying that they laugh when they see the germans on patrol, becasue they are being forbidden to take action of any kind that goes beyond observing and writing a report. You can assault a ship right under their eyes, and the germans will watch and write a report, that's all. Great.
One thing I do not accept: to vaguely refer to alleged German responsibilities towards a follish NATO mission, or a vague idea of an alleged "shared history" we should have with Afghanistan. This latter stuff get'S blown up beyond realistic scale, and since Afghnaistan (and even more: its corruopt leaders) wanted something from Germany, Karzai did his best to hammer this history thing home, and many philantropists in Germany even were not too stupid not to believe it.
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I'd like to agree to you in that Europe follows another route then the US. The problem though, as far as I can see this, is that other parts of the world regard to the US and Europe, practically all of NATO, as one block, not much seperated from each other. That means, whatever the US does, it will have an effect for Europe purely by association, american hypocrisis becomes western hypocrisis and eventually...german hypocrisis, even if we ourselves know the differences.
Another problem, as far as my understanding for the situation goes, is the following. European countries as they are now do not have a big stance on the international stage where giants like Russia, the US, India or China try to put through their interests. This situation will become worse with the gradual decline of the US and the raise of China and the far east in general. Now I do not believe the world will become a better place. The situation as it is reminds me more of the europea nation states close to the 20ths century. Bickering, nationalism and the continuation of diplomatic politics with military means will once again become the norm. The world has been in kind of a slumber after the end of the cold war and now reemerges in a shape known from before WW2. Europe needs to get its act together as a whole to play a role in that. So far the population more or less reminds me of the US before WW1, isolisationist, the worlds problems are not ours, let others take care of it.
This simply does not fly, that is one lesson history proved already. I am not pro war, far from it. But I consider war a sad reality in this world, one that should be avoided whereever possible, but not at all costs.
Now to your points, I agree to all of them, especially the last one. We don't do this just for NATO, even though we do have a certain responsebility in this regard. I am not a fan of another german "Sonderweg". We had that, it didn't work out. But beeing in an alliance may force us to commit even if we do not like it. This is the basis of cooperation everyhwere.
Nevertheless, a real war should be very carefully considered. For good or worse, Germany chose to participate in this war. We can't pull out now just so with a "Eh, sorry, we tried, didn't work, cheerio" and leave the ppl there behind to get once again killed and opressed by the Taliban. And that does not just apply to Karzai and his crowies. One thing is for sure, should we leave, and the Taliban come back, a lot of common folks there will bite the dust, if not worse. And I am not sure this is a path Germany should go. Especially in light of the stance our troops down there have, which basicly comes down to "Let us just do the job". A much more mature view then either the polititans nor the population here has. From my POV we don't have another option but to name the child by it's name and get the job done the right way. Anything else will mean: more deaths, more terror, more hypocrisis on the human level, less influence, tainted values and a loss of direction on a western nationwide level. It will have a very negative psychological impact on all sides. The chance to not get involved passed a long time ago. Debating that is wasted energy, I fear, but should serve as good example for future issues.