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Originally Posted by Skybird
Typed a reply, and deleted it. So now this.
You ignore major ingredients of what forms man's reality, Neal. And that leads you to conclusions that are part of america's mythology, which I do not mean metaphorically, but factual. To assume that life is what you make of it, and you can make anything because everybody has the same chance and opportunity, simply is foolish nonsens and shows that the insight into the wide diversity of ways man's life can unfold on for the worse or the better, is extremely limited. Why isn'T everybody a millionaire, then, why are the few on top live at the cost of the many at the bottom, and why are there so many slums and underprivileged juveniles turning criminal? Social extremes collide here, like two supernovas. And the wealth of those at the top - needs the weakness and poverty of those at the bottom. Damn, the whole world is made up of this principle. "Seines eigenen Glückes Schmied sein", we say in german. that works only within the set of chaces life provides you with, and not beyond, and many of them come later, and cannot be forseen, and even come without a link to your earlier efforts or laziness. And the intial starting coditions are different for everybody. Social systems formed differing ways and levels of how to compensate for these differences later on, and call that a form of social justice, which it is, at least by ambitions of estabolishing a more general basis of fairness. But again, this works only so far, and not beyond. we all are subject to the social environment in which we grow up. Skin colour, religion. Antipathy and sympathy between two people meeting. Accident and disease. Wrong and right assessmements, and different preparations because of that. Different interests. Different possibilities of the family you grew up in, regarding money, education, interest of the parents. that just one single follish mistake you made, because you were young. The list is ENDLESS.
Same opportunity for everybody? Not even in paradise. It has been one of the modern American myths that made america attractive for many people going there, it was an attractive dream. But today, more and more it serves exclusively as a self-justification and excuse not to self-reflect, while very many people's dreams for a better life have turned into pragmatism of just surviving the next forseeable future - and that covers the wide range from "opportunities" (that all of a sudden for many are not so much equal anymore), and reaches even as far as crime. Same opportunities for everyone is also a basic precondition for this literal world-famous american optimism, that can only be maintained by either assuming there is a deity meaning it well with you (God's own country), or by assuming that everthing is possible for you. If both are missing, optimism falls back in favour of realism. And if you think of it, in politics, this simple link is something that explains a lot of america's foreign-political adventures, this optimism versus realism thing. And by that record we see that optimism eventually can grow to overestimation of one'S abilities.
Your neat and tidy views work on paper only, like those of socialists as well, you both are utopians. But dirty, unsorted, chaotic reality - neither world, nor "fate" nor man's nature - does not match. You could as well try to trim a big park with nail scissors.
And finally I am wondering: has a little luck never made that decisive difference in your life, when your life's path splitted...?
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Thank you for that bit of naivete.
To repeat, starting conditions may differ, but here the opportunity is the same. Maybe there's a language issue here, I never said some people have don't advantages over other people. I said with or without advantages, the opportunity is the same. No one is stopping a ghetto kid from doing well in school and becoming a lawyer, or a dope dealer, or President--or all three! Nothing stops a farm boy from learning to weld and becoming a good craftsman, or a girl from a broken home from getting a degree and becoming an architect. Who says everyone has to be a
millionaire to be successful? Life is what you make it. If that's not true, then what is life? The stuff that happens to you that you have no control over? Ha! Believe that if you want, but don't expect me to buy it. I understand some people want to coast through life, that's fine, but that's their choice. Don't lay this "we have no power over our lives" crap on me. What a lame excuse.
American mythology, is it? So now we move this arguement into national characteristics? Do we want to go there? :hmm: Always with the "American" this and that. Well, in keeping with that theme: American optimism, may I have some more, please.
And don't call me a utopian again, that's a hanging offence.
Finally, yeah, I have had good luck and bad luck. Haven't we all? There are cases where someone has something BAD happen to them and they need help--but there are many more cases where someone wants to get help they don't deserve.
That's socialism. Hey, just look at handicap parking spaces here. 9 times out of 10, the person I see get out of the car or truck is no more handicapped than me. That's the rule, not the exception.
Probably one of the most unlucky things that ever happened to me was the day I decided to start a website about submarine games...
if only I had possessed the foresight to start BeautifulBreasts.com, a website about great plastic surgeries...the annual Meets would be so much more fun.
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Neal, with all due respect, but that is pretty much cliché and ideology born nonsese and also defying any common sense.
1. There are millions of ppl out there working hard, cleaning toilets, cleaning streets, packing groceries, etc. etc. To generally label these folks as lazy and lacking the will to use opportunity is more prejudiced then anything else and a very one sided view. Yeah, there are those black sheep out there, but to put them all within one basket is unfair and most of all......
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With due respect back, Beowulf, I don't know agree. "cliché and ideology born nonsese and also defying any common sense" You sound like one of the 18th century monarchs in England when presented with the notion of American democracy and a classless society.
Let's just say, your definition of common sense and mine are polar opposites. I'm sure you think yours is correct.
There are millions of ppl out there working hard, cleaning toilets, cleaning streets, packing groceries, etc. etc. To generally label these folks as lazy and lacking the will to use opportunity is more prejudiced then anything else and a very one sided view.
Oh, these poor people, trapped in their lives. Wait, I'm one of them. Yeah, I'm not a heart surgeon or captain of enterpise, but I acknowledge that was my decision, not some oppresive fate grinding me down. I am doing exactly what I want, and if I keep working toward it, I will achieve it. That's opportunity and I'm taking it.
There's nothing wrong with cleaning toilets, packing groceries, driving a truck, sorting records for a chemical company, or being a bum, if that's what people want. But nothing is stopping the truck driver or toilet cleaner from bettering himself, except him (extraordinary circumstances aside). As long as he doesn't try to sell society on the idea that someone needs to take care of him. And nothing is stopping Mr. Toilet Cleaner or Ms. Grocery Packer from doing the same. Let me repeat:
nothing is stopping them, except them. Oh sure, the toiler cleaner with a wife and six kids and huge credit card bills may find it a challenge to take the opportunity, but I think he had some part of the decision-making process concerning those kids and bills.
If everybody had "opportunities" and used them as such, who then would do the low wage jobs? it is not as if a society has good paying jobs for everybody, thus it is "impossible", by any sense of reason, to provide anybody with a good job. Not doable, no way
Finally we agree, although you miss the point:
opportunity exists for everyone but not everyone will take it. That's a given, obviously.
To say that everyone will take the opportunities is to willfully ignore the human reality you keep bringing up. The reality is some people are not interested in taking the opportunity, because they are not willing to do what it takes to get it (ie Lazy, everyone's favorite word now).
Your premise for a good life shows a uniformed type of human almost reminsicent of communist ideology.
Nice, really nice. Actually, communist ideology of having a uniform type of human is done
by force. I'm saying you can have what you want, if you want it enough, no one is stopping you (and no one is propping up a bunch of non-performering slackers for you to compete with).
Attitudes like yours will eventually cost a country it's democracy. Turbo capitalismm, as is shown in history, always produces very few rich and masses of poor folks, with a very small middle class. Simply because only very few ppl are "able" to use oportunity propperly and sooner or later everything works through networks. And more often then not you also have to be a ruthless to get where you want. This was the situation in Europe before the birth of communism. Environments like these carry the fruits of revolutions. And it's getting worse if hard working ppl are labelled "lazy" and unfit for higher pay just because they do not fullfill certain characteristics defined by capitalism or simply have other priorities in life then career, like home and family. This is what causes outrage and a breakup in society. It's an extreme ideology and chances are that the pendulum will swing to the other extreme sooner or later. This usually happens when a powerful minority dictates the terms of living to the majority against their basic needs
What? Who's dictating anything? No powerful minority is dictating anything. No one needs to be ruthless. Talk about cliche. Hello, Upton Sinclair called and he wants his premise back. This isn't 1899, there is opportunity now.
Sheesh, poor Neal, so brainwashed and directionless. How is he going to get by in life?
Very well, thank you
Neal