[Skybird]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Hogwash...This hasn't been brought about by Russia all by itself.

I admit the Russian govt. has screwed up diplomatically and should have done its job and pulled back its troops into Southern Ossetia straight away. Put it didn't.

However all the handwringing in Europe and the US about Russia breaking international law, but paid no attention to the Russian government objections over Kosova which have been pointed out earlier in this thread is what annoys me. Taking everything that Sakashvilli says at face value.

As an editorial in the FT I read yesterday wrote "What is sauce for the Kosovo gander is also sauce for the Ossetian Goose". The FT being one of the few newspapers I consider to be objective in its reporting and analysis.

You really must be paranoid to think the Russia or its government wants to charge into former republics like Ukraine or the Baltic states. Either that or you think Medvedev and Putin are thick. Russia might like the Crimea back but to think they would risk a full blow war over it. Like Sky says Russia takes the long view. Ukraine has elections soon, Yushenko is unpopular and half of Ukraine is ethnic Russian.

Skybird has made good points here and fairly analysed them and dissected them. All you seem to be able to do is just regurgitate the same speil that is deep rooted in your dislike for Russia and Russians. Putin is no Hitler, and I wouldn't call him a dictator. Have you been to Russia recently? I have and hey I didn't see any sign of a dictatorship, didn't see anyone walking in fear or people afraid to talk about events or criticise the Kremlin. I'm sure you'll point out the Kremlin squashing certain newspapers and TV stations, but you think the Russians just get info by that. There are plenty of Russian publications available via the net and other sources, and I have not seen any move to have them shut down, no web filtering a la China.

Putin meanwhile has accused the US to have intended the outbreak of violence for purpose of helping one of the US candidates.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...war/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586605.stm


there are several points that prevent this being wiped off the table too easily.

1. there is at least one case that could work as a precedent. during the Iran-hostage crisis, Republicans had established a secret deal with Iran to not free the hostages before the elections had been held and Reagun won against Carter. that way, Carter was prevented from taking advantage of the PR success of being the one politician who brought home america'S hostages. reagan was celebrated for having freed the hostages, while Carters months of work were minimised, and his role ridiculed. He got betrayed by the Republican party by use of dirty tricks that went at the cost of those american hostages who could have been freed much earlier.

2. Rice is reported to have send contradciting signals, saying she had warned Georgia's Uber-Trottel Saakashvilli of using force, but obviously the warnings fell on deaf ears - if internally such warnings ever were given for sure. It would not be the first time that a female diplomat sends contradicting signals to a foreign regime (remember Hussein 1990). If that was intentional, or not, we will never be allowed to know.

3. As a matter of fact, there have been and there are american troops present in Georgia, before the war there were 150 advisors and around 1000 combat troops joining in maneuvres with Georgian troops - who after the maneuver did not move back into their barracks, but immediately from the maneuver ground relocated to their attack positions from which they launched their assault just weeks later. Same was true for Russian troops conducting exercises at the same time - they too did not return home but relocated into psoitions from which they could reach the peacekeeopers in the province quickly. As the following chronic argues, there is no reason how anyone oin europe could have gooten surprised by the outbreak of war. That so many were surprised indeed shows the widespread dilletantism of today's spectacular and competent political leaders.
They SHOULD have seen it coming, really.

On July 15, an unprecedented show of military strength began on both sides of the main ridge of the Great Caucasus Range. In the south, not far from Tbilisi, close to 1,000 Americans joined the Fourth Infantry Brigade of the Georgian army in a maneuver called "Immediate Response 2008." (...) Following the military exercise on the Georgian side, President Saakashvili -- directly under the noses of the American military advisors -- sent parts of his army toward South Ossetia instead of ordering them to return to their barracks. The artillery brigade, for example, which would begin firing on the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali eight days later, on Aug. 7, is normally divided between two towns, Senaki and Gori. But after July 30, the brigade was concentrated in Gori.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...574812,00.html

4. Fact is that Washington wants to advance into Russia's Caucasean backyard at all cost, no matter how, to create a breach from where to bring even more pressure onto Russian interests and options, to cover geostrategic interests and pipelines in the region, and pushing the Russians even more against the wall by making NATO standing at their borders in the Caucasean region as well. Saakashvilli for this is just a tool. America claims worldwide validity of American ideas - and this brutal arrogance is the real problem here, and is the real motor behind NATO's aggressive expansionism.

In this conflict, america is as much concerned about democracy and freedom for Georgia, as is Russia really interested in the fate of the South Ossetians. Both these reasons given are just salvos in the propaganda war. That'S why the US is lining up with such a hysteric idiot like Saakashvilli who is everything but a democratic or competent ruler, and that is why the Kremlin so stubbornly defends it's stand in the region against American demands to claim it for the West, which means nothing else than: for American influence. "Democracy", and "independence for supressed Ossetians" in the end have nothing to do with both nation's true interests. Only hopeless idealists and determined nationalists, who uncritically embrace everything their countries say and do, can seriously believe these popular fairy-tales.

Intelligence operations - their major duty is not to guard against the enemy, but to deceive the own public, and hindering it to know what it should not know, without letting the public ever realise that it got manipulated into believing what it should believe.