SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - Sinking of the u-85

Penelope_Grey · 08-02-08, 05:45 AM

Well considering there were 29 men in the water, that is more than half the crew. VIIC's could only carry about 50 men including the commander... so seeing that amount of men they could have guaged that this was no trick. Losing nearly 30 men would be too much operating a type VII U-Boat on 20 men could be done in a pinch, but, well it would certainly be a LOT of work. Also if it was a ploy, that many men in the water is a lot of men to sacrifice to save your boat.

Basically, its a mixed bag, in the heat of the moment the captain of the Roper probably did not consider it as logically as I just did... such is the benefit of hindsight. However I do believe Clay Blair has a valid point in what he says about over-excitement... they lost out on a golden opportunity because they were so keen to sink the U-Boat.

Is what happened out their murder? No. But I do think this could quite easily be considered as being a crime only one level under murder. The men were killed but that was not the intention of the commander, at least I hope not. Is he a murderer? Not quite. But flipping close to it IMO.

Again... it all comes down to who won the war IMO.

Had the Germans won this would probably be considered a pretty hanous war crime (a sick irony too considering what the Nazis were up to in East Europe!)
But the Germans lost. Therefore, no war crime.

I take the stance though that since those men in the water 1) were so many, and 2) they were surrendering and caling for help... the captain was wrong to do what he did.

Yes, I appreciate that the U-Boat represented a threat to his ship and crew, definately. But in that shallow water and it being 1942 and the advancements in detection capability, don't tell me that destroyer could not have easily tracked that U-Boat.

So what if it was just 2 men in the water who got out of the sub, does that make the act less bad? If it was just a handful of men, then in my view captain is well within his rights to say I wasnt sure it was genuine or a trick, and that is legitimate given what GR posted above. But as numbers go up the line gets more fuzzy. By the time you get over 20 you have to sit and think, well hang on. 20 men are shoved out of the sub to trick the destroyer????

Basically... the captain here did wrong.

08-02-08, 05:45 AM	#9
Penelope_Grey Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,893 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well considering there were 29 men in the water, that is more than half the crew. VIIC's could only carry about 50 men including the commander... so seeing that amount of men they could have guaged that this was no trick. Losing nearly 30 men would be too much operating a type VII U-Boat on 20 men could be done in a pinch, but, well it would certainly be a LOT of work. Also if it was a ploy, that many men in the water is a lot of men to sacrifice to save your boat. Basically, its a mixed bag, in the heat of the moment the captain of the Roper probably did not consider it as logically as I just did... such is the benefit of hindsight. However I do believe Clay Blair has a valid point in what he says about over-excitement... they lost out on a golden opportunity because they were so keen to sink the U-Boat. Is what happened out their murder? No. But I do think this could quite easily be considered as being a crime only one level under murder. The men were killed but that was not the intention of the commander, at least I hope not. Is he a murderer? Not quite. But flipping close to it IMO. Again... it all comes down to who won the war IMO. Had the Germans won this would probably be considered a pretty hanous war crime (a sick irony too considering what the Nazis were up to in East Europe!) But the Germans lost. Therefore, no war crime. I take the stance though that since those men in the water 1) were so many, and 2) they were surrendering and caling for help... the captain was wrong to do what he did. Yes, I appreciate that the U-Boat represented a threat to his ship and crew, definately. But in that shallow water and it being 1942 and the advancements in detection capability, don't tell me that destroyer could not have easily tracked that U-Boat. So what if it was just 2 men in the water who got out of the sub, does that make the act less bad? If it was just a handful of men, then in my view captain is well within his rights to say I wasnt sure it was genuine or a trick, and that is legitimate given what GR posted above. But as numbers go up the line gets more fuzzy. By the time you get over 20 you have to sit and think, well hang on. 20 men are shoved out of the sub to trick the destroyer???? Basically... the captain here did wrong. __________________ I SURVIVED THE FIRST EVER SUBSIM WEREWOLF HUNT - and... I actually won the game for the humans too!