[JoeCorrado]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Joe,

Obama gets quoted in practically all major newspapers here to have said, after his return from europe, that if NATO sends more troops to Afghanistan, America could withdraw troops there, save the money for the operation and turn it into tax savings for Americans at home. to this context and quote I refer. and diplomatically seen, it was stupoid to put it this bluntly. As stupid as the general offense by MacCain's apeman, offending Germans for having applauded Obama's adress.

Regarding NATO and Afghanistan, I always was against making this a NATO operation, and have said and argued on many occasions why I think so. That the war for years was led incompetently, was forgotten in favour of Iraq, did not make it better.

Regarding Germany, the German govenment still lies to the people about the real nature of this war, and tries to hide it and gloss it over. As a result the german mission is run by false assumptions, is underfunded financially and logistically, and leave the troops in an extremely vulnerable position where they depend on the mercy of their possible enemy whom they cannot escape since they totally lack the needed autark mobility for that. Every cop on German streets is allowed to use more force than german soldiers in Afghanistan, and you better take that statement literally, because it is like that exactly.

the role of NATO in it is a description of how messed up the internal order of the alliancen is, how far america and europe already are apart in the understanding of ehat NATO is, and how limited the will of unity in it really is. German assumptions regarding Obama are - wrongly - that he pould accept to subscrbe to the european position to endlessly blablabla things and swear of methods of war. that si why m,any people here will have a rough awakening with Obama if hw would get elected, and the hype about him could turn into the oppsotie within one day - parts of the leading politicans already voiced their anger regarding careful remarks Oabma made that could be interpreted that he wants to wage a tougher stringer war in afghanistan by use of more european troops. No honeymoon is forever, and for europeans and especially germans it could become a tough awakening.

the war on Afghanistan I have very complex views on, and on the role of the germans and NATO in it. Almost two years ago I wrote along essay about it and linked it, "Trapped in the Afghan maze." It close to thirty pages, and is a thorough description of how I saw things 24-48 months ago. the old link is no longer active, but I could send you the text, if you want. I see both the Us and Europe failing in Afghanistan, but for very different reasons, and for reasons of deceiving themselves and even working against each other, partially. the Germany position about Afghanistan is one of self-deception, and overestimation of the european attractiveness. the american position is one of self-justifying for the past 30 years, and simplifying the present. the enemy had been allowed to regroup and has been prematurely written off the table, Pakistan is leftf untouched, and more than half of the financial aids have dissappeared in dark channels. Just a question of differing opinions within NATO? If it only would be as easy as that. Truth is the reality on the ground is many times more complex and difficult.

since years I see the afghanistan war as a war lost, and it was lost without need, what is happening now is buying time to evade needing to admit that. One could say that pragmatism should take over and NATO should send more troops there, but one can also rightfully point at that the mess was self-made, and that NATO was brought into it by playing tricks, intimidation, and even cheating. My position is thta as long as I see prctically all european goverments taking nonsens about Afghanistan and designing their non-working policies on the basis of decpetions, lies and a total inabulity to form a reaistic assessement of the country and the ideological drive behind this conflict, I must refuse to send troops - including american troops! - there on the basis of lies and telling them to risk their lifes for anti-intellectual BS, dreams, follies and illusions. Because you do not have any justification to give to your men when sending them there that would allow you to escape needing to lower your eyes when telling them. insteasd of looking straight.

at least if you are not a trained and experienced liar.

Afghanistan is a mess, and it is a maze, and everybody is running around blind and meaningless. I recommend the reading of these books:

Youssaf, M. (General from Pakistan)
The bear trap

Rothstein, H.S. (Colonel from USA)
Afghanistan and the troubled future of unconventional warfare

Obama and MacCain are politicians, and that means: don't trust them. They drive their own selfish agenda, and for that both talk their propaganda. they pour right that honey into your ear that is serving best to make you listening to them.But the reality is so much more complex, and uneasy.

Item 1. If others do not step up and participate in a more meaningful way in Afghanistan the the U.S. WILL go it alone. Have no doubt about that. And that going it alone will cost the Americans dearly. THAT is what he meant- we can do it alone if we must, but it would be easier and far less expensive for many nations to participate instead of the one. And that would be good for America. Maybe it was just lost in the translation?

Item 2. Of course Obama agrees with you. The war in Afghanistan was where we should have stayed focus and done the job there as we needed to. He was against the war in Iraq from the start.

Item 3. Yes, Germany has more troops on the ground in Afghanistan than anybody else besides the United States. The problem is that they are not allowed to take part in combat missions for the most part. A soldier who cannot perform the duties of a soldier is not all that much help.

Item 4. Please do send me the text. I look forward to reading it!

Item 5. Obama has stated that the United States sent Pakistan some $10 billion and wonders just where it was spent. Clearly no additional aid is warranted unless it will go towards the intended purpose.

Item 6. Most wars are more complicated close up than they are from far away. This one is no different and no less messy.

Item 7. George Bush and much of his administration have been dishonorable, misleading, lying, bullying, and generally all around bad guys since they took office. Their abuse of trust has only been exceeded by their abuse of power.

Having said that- what happened on 9-11-2001 was not a fairy tale. It did happen and we know who, we know where, and we know how- and we also know our duty. When it comes to Afghanistan all Americans stand united.

We WILL track them down, we will kill them and we WILL do it, with or without anybody elses help. THAT choice, is yours.