[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I completely agree. But try explaining that to poorly educated Americans who expect to see some kind of result from this fiasco. Not that a stable and democratic Iraq would be a bad thing, far from it.

I think you've hit one of the big problems right off the bat. Americans just don't understand why a nation that has used its military to "fight for freedom" with such results in the past can't do it now in a third world nation.

At this point I really can't form a solid opinion. On the one hand, try meeting those people and sharing their hope of building a country like the ones we enjoy in the western world. To them it's a whole new frontier, a future they could never have hoped for. On the other hand, this war is terribly mismanaged. Coalition troops get killed for one primary reason. Idiot officers fighting the last war.

I really don't know what to say to this. You've been there and done that. I have to say, I feel like what is being put out is on the optimistic side. But I dunno.

Speaking from the perspective of a U.S. Marine, I don't know wtf they were thinking. Perhaps some of our British friends or our other allies have troops that are well-versed in garrison operations and civil pacification. That sure as hell is not us. I would love to meet the *&$^*&($ that decided "Hey let's send naval assault infantry into an ideologically-motivated warzone. After all, if a Marine isn't sensitive, who is?"

Another problem you've hit on. The military, to put it crudely, are butchers. Their job is to kill people. They are not cops, their job is to control. We really are trying to put a square peg in a round hole here. We can't conquer, as that's not politically acceptable, so we are bleeding to "control, but not own". Which is dumb, IMO.

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Flame me if you please I will not complain.
Many of our troops are not heroes. I'm not. Many of them are a$$holes that make people suffer or die for no reason. During my tours I had the misfortune of seeing 3 innocent, completely harmless people killed for very little reason because of overzealous Marines. In my cowardice I did not request mast to report them as they, however wrong they were, meant more to me than any friends I have ever had.
On the part of the troops this is understandable. From day 1 in boot camp we are told to kill. We are told it is right. We are told that duty exonerates us from responsibility. That is good training if you are being prepared to die on a beach somewhere. But it is poor training for someone who is expected to act as a stabilizing force in a foreign region beset by ideological conflict.

You're assuming the people who are giving the orders really do believe "stabilizing" the country is possible.

Do I believe Iraq had WMD's? Undoubtedly.

Well, they certainly did at one point. At the time of the invasion, who knows?

Do I believe they were a threat to us? No.

Agreed.

Do I believe this war had hidden economic and political motivations? Of course. Virtually all wars do. Remember that before you volunteer to fight because someone else tells you someone is evil.

Hidden motivations tend not to be their primary reasons, although.

Nonetheless, now that we are in Iraq and Afghanistan, I think it is our responsibility to help rebuild, although a great deal more public oversight is required. Who are we to invade a country, destroy its infrastructure, and then just leave it like that?

We are oh so kind enough to "stay" as long as the public opinion will let us after destabilizing a country.

In my view the first step is admitting we made a mistake. I hope our British friends will acknowledge they did as well. Not by following us into this war, which I admire them for, but for creating this blasted country to begin with. Iraq is not a nation. It was created by Winston Churchill. If you wish to learn the source of my opinion you can find it in a book called "Churchill's Folly". The author's name escpaes me but I'm sure it would be easy to find on amazon.

Truely, what Arab "nation" is? A bunch of tribes that happened to be inside the map lines that were drawn by European powers.

All that being said I am just as much at fault as anyone for the current situation. I was one of those Americans who subscribed to the "kick their a$$ and take their gas!" philosophy. I am older and somewhat less stupid now and I see that was wrong.

While very humble of you, I don't think this can be blamed on the military. Their job is to follow orders. They did.

PD