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Originally Posted by goldorak
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Originally Posted by Molon Labe
If you go back a few posts you'll see a collioquoy between TLAM and I where I brought up that very point.
I think it does change the gameplay balance. I think, probably, it's an improvement rather than a step back, considering just how hard it is to get past the MH-60 to get any of those weapons on the OHP anyways. But there is a political dimension that might cause us to think twice about it.
I'd put realism over politics any day, but I don't think we can ignore the politics considering this is meant to be a widely used mod.
And speaking of realism, considering that the warhead of the 53-56K is almost equivalent to the Mk8s that sunk the Belgrano, the idea that one could sink a ship half the Belgrano's size seems right to me.
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Yes but the changes you're proposing would impact more directly russian subs vs ohp.
Thats why i say that such a change would give too much a free ride to subs, you MUST take into account gameplay balance.
This game is already heavily biased vs subs (do i need to remind you of the invisibile masts issue ? ), adding a one shot one kill feature is just too much. This is where the game aspect needs to be taken into account. |
I think you're right that balance needs to be taken into account; I've always been a balance advocate. As it stands right now though, the FFG+MH60 has a substantial edge againt the Kilo, especially with the max-speed torpedo range reduction introduced in DW 1.04. So one-shot kills improve game balance; not harm it. And to add to the "game" balance argument, the 53-65K is hard to use against AI ships and is easy for a player controlled FFG to evade. There should be some reward for that; and, there should be a reason to use it instead of the USET/YU-8.
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Originally Posted by Luftwolf
Please keep in mind that the general belgrano was sank as much because of incompetant damage control as damage from torpedoes, as far as I know.
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Good point on this one. I guess the BG's about as useful as the Sheffield then. Why does the world have to be so peaceful?--only two ships sunk by torpedoes since WWII! You wouldn't happen to know anything about the stats on the weapon that sunk the Khukri by any chance?
Without a solid data point, maybe a better way of anchoring the scale would be to just estimate how much more damaging a (contact) torpedo hit below the waterline would be compared to a cruise missile hit near the waterline. At least that way we tie it in to some real world data instead of just pulling something out of our asses.
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I would expect a WWII era light crusier to be able to survive 4-6 WWII era torpedos with a properly trained crew, although I'm not sure I have any real basis for making this claim.
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I would expect that you're nuts.
The following is from googling "light cruiser" "torpedo" "sunk":
HMS BONAVENTURE (March 31, 1941)
British light cruiser built at Greenock, Scotland and launched in April 1939, was sunk south-east of the island of Crete by a torpedo from the Italian submarine Ambra. The cruiser was escorting Convoy GA-8 from Greece to Alexandria. The Bonaventure too
k 139 of her crew to the bottom. There were 310 survivors.
Light Cruiser Hermes sunk by one torpedo:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...679D946596D6CF
Rear Adm. Ainsworth's Task Force 36.1, consisted of the light cruisers USS Honolulu (CL 48), USS Helena (CL 50), and USS St. Louis (CL 49) and four destroyers, making full speed to Kula Gulf to intercept the Japanese. It met the enemy force...and USS Helena, was sunk by three torpedoes fired by the Suzukaze and Tanikaze
PHASE III. Night Action - Roughly 22:00 to 02:00 hours., June 1st.
22:04hrs
H.M.S. CASTOR and part of 11th Destroyer Flotilla in action (CASTOR'S 1st Night Action).
22:20hrs
Light cruiser action of 2nd L.C.S. (SOUTHAMPTON, DUBLIN, NOTTINGHAM, BIRMINGHAM) with Greman light cruisers. German light cruiser FRAUENLOB sunk by torpedo from SOUTHAMPTON.
ATLANTA, JUNEAU, et al were light, antiaircraft cruisers -- sixteen! 5"/127mm guns and eight 21" torpedo tubes.
Although il-suited to surface combat against heavy units, both ATLANTA and JUNEAU were desperately thrown into the First Battle of Guadalcanal. ...
JUNEAU survived a torpedo hit during the battle to be sunk by a submarine while withdrawing
During her return to Germany, that same evening, the British submarine Truant attacked Karlsruhe off Kristiansand, hitting her with one torpedo that disabled both engines and power stations. Her crew was picked up by the torpedo boat Greif which then sank the crippled cruiser with two torpedoes at 22:50 in the evening.
By these accounts, it seems that one torpedo was usually adequate for a mission kill or a sinking of a WWII light cruiser, that nearly all would fall to two--actually I didn't see any that survived two. There's two above that take three and sink; I'd say 1-2 is the "expected" need and 3 is the absolute maximum.