hey zantham, thank you very much for the advice.. but at least in the training mission it still seems to be hopeless. i marked the ends of the sonar tracks on the navigation map and found where the ships were heading.. but the ships are still out of range for pinging. (tangent - is it right to think that it's a bad idea to ping an escort?) however.. the starting position for the mission is inside 2 of the escorts sweep range (which you estimated to be a 10nm area..) what should i do? should i blame this on poor mission design from ubi?