[joegrundman]

baggy green,

this is not the situation that exists, not even remotely, and nor is that the situation that torture is expected to be used under, and nor is it the situation that torture has already been used under. You are trying to make a case such that if torture is suitable under extreme condition A, it must logically be reasonable to use it also in situations B,C,D.....x

Secondly you are failing to see the difference between keeping it illegal and doing dirty things in the dark at times of emergency, and making it a legal part of your government apparatus.

To have it as a legal structure is to give it a normative effect on the moral structure of the world, and is to say something about who you are as a people and what you stand for. It also shows how very far the US is moving away from the trajectory of the rest of the West, and more in line with countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and even Iraq under Saddam (but i believe that even these countries officially deny it happens).

The US makes a lot of noise about being the moral light of the world, and this is part of your moral package that you will be projecting. As a result of this new projection of what Americans and the US ultimately stand for, you are also making it more difficult for other western countries to support you in your adventures.

I believe US policies have already made it much more difficult for your most important ally (UK) to follow you, and that this is the ultimate message of the British withdrawal from Basra.

Down this path, that Bush and co have defined for you over the last decade, lies not a world "moving together under US leadership and inspiration" (which is more-or-less the theme since WW2), but simply the US asserting it's will on everyone else in the world through military dominance. Is that a path you really want to go down?

For sure it's possible if you really do want it, but i don't believe Americans really want to be a naked imperial power.

This is what i think is at stake in this issue of legalising torture.