[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AntEater

I disagree with Skybird on this:
While I'm not a fan of Scientology, you cannot battle them on ideological grounds.

The interior ministres or the Verfassungsschutz do not battle it on ideological grounds. The violation of the constitution and the thread to it's goals are exemplary, and a solid, clear defined crime. If a rapist kidnapps somebody and holds her in a cellar for days, and the person chnages her psychological behavior, than this also does not get disucssed on ideological grounds, but is described as a crime, that simple. we do not need to debate with them on ideology - the intel services have privided and are told to provide even more facts abiut deeds they coimited, and their activities within society - and on the grounds of these deeds it will be decided if they are compatible with the constitution or not.

But that is not important for me. To get rid of them, no matter how - that is what I am after. an if that is possible by sueing them overt tax fraud or soemthing else, okay with me. Hauptsache weg mit ihnen, jetzt und für immer.

You said "also, while scientology is a moronic, totalitarian cult, so are most religions", by that you express you accept them to be a religion. that is your personal opinion then, but the courts so far have seen it differently. Scientotlogy is not a relgion, and thus oyu must not compare it to other relgions. It is a profit-oriented enterprise with covers it's totalitariansim and abusing of people with religiosity. but that does not make it a religion. so why comparing it to religion, and helping their defense by that? that is what they want: to be seen as a religion, so that they can claim the constitution's protection for free religion, and can claim massive tax relief. they are not more a religion than the stories around Middleearth are a religion.

You aid "Also, I don't see the problem: at least in Germany we're not in a time for cults, today the cult is money, and I suppose many people who do join Scientology do so for contacts and career advancement, not for spiritual enlightenment." - As I quoted material gotten by the Verfassungsschutz , the intelligence service obviously sees it totally different than you.

Cults, you said. Clever scientology today hides the cult, and approaches people on terms of being a normal initiative caing for the communal wellbeing. And only slowly and secretly, people get lured deeper into the system, at some time becoking object of attempts to lead them into psychological dependency where they still think they allow that by their free will. It is a longer operation. And only sometimes, even force and violance is used, but not before the organization is sure that the indiovidual already is that weakned and dependant that it still would not dare to leave. Meanwhile, those who leave, or attack and criticise the organisation, get thtreatened, become subject of campaigns of character assassination, get bombared with suings at court, and get blackmailed by threatening family members, and scaring friends that want to help and try to brake the vicitims isolation. Classical wolf pack tactics.

Also, from social working and education sector i must tell you that you oversee a lot of their threats: in the past two years they have tried to hide behind facades of non-ideological offices that provide additonal school trainign for weak students, not being perceived as Scientology, and by that being able to indoctrinate their ideas into children's mind more subtle, and even raising public sympathy for being "socially engaged". If you can't see the thread here, i cannot help you. Scientology is about destroying the constitutional order and the free democratic system, and replace it with it's own ideology. That is best accieved by infiltrating peoples mind when they are very young and can be easily influenced (thats why all sects are so greedy to get children of members under their control, oir to infiltrate the thinking of decision makers (politicians), or people of public life that serve in a role of public idols (stars). They poush for seizing key positions that alolow them despite their small numbers to influence policy, education, economy, and form the total system to meet their goals.

That hardly can be taken easily. Scientology in Germany has constantly grown in the past 30+ years, and has seen a jump in spreading 2-3 years ago. This was only possible because of many people have an opinion about them like you - not taking them serious, minimizing their determination and threat potential. as a result, they grew. That minimal their influence is.

Especially we in Germany should know it better, and should show a tougher determination when facing such an enemy. Our constitution was designed by German'S will as well as by Allied pressure to make it impossible that totalitarianism and centralized state control every grabs hold in germany again. what does violate basic principles of the constitution, cannot be tolerated, therefore. And seing it by the ideals themselves as expressed in that constitution, I agree with it on that level, too.

Hopping John Travolats and Tom Cruises seem to have been successful nevertheless to lower at least your deflector shield. that's why they were sent over, or what else have you thought? They give it a friendly, respectable face. And with some people, they score.