[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Leaving the UN would be fine by me.

which still would not give you any right to act by your own rights in foreign nations and ignore their own, and impose yours onto them like in the example in this thread.

Wrong. I'd accept it just fine just as i accept the concept that Germans have the right to govern themselves first and paramount.

Then you agree that Iran should be allowed to develope nukes if they want, yes? Becasue by legal standards, they have that right.

I declared no such thing. According to our constitution our leaders may not enter into any treaty, agreement or abide by any international law that surrenders our sovereignity to anyone. Sorry if you don't like it but that's the way it is.

as long as your constittuion ends at your borders, I do not care. Wehre you impose your laws onto others becaseu you say your constitution allows you to do - that is were legal and justified self-defense against your trespassing of the line begins. Like in this example, which remains to be an example of wrong no matter what your constituion say on that. Becasue your rules and laws have to end at your borders.

So US government is violating the sovereignty of allied nations because we'll prosecute a criminal that is returned to our jurisdiction even if his capture violated the laws of the country he was apprehended in? I know English isn't your first language Skybird but surely you don't expect us to let a criminal, like say a bin Laden go scot free, just because his capture violated someone elses local laws.

Your jurisdiction ends at your borders, and like you would not accept others to run secret police actions in your nation, you must and have to accept that you have no policing authortiy in foreign soverign nations. You can ask those nations for that suspect, and they will decide what to do on the basis of THEIR laws then, not yours. you can be allowed by these nations to catch him yourself, or doing so but having to accept assistance from the local police. but rushing in and get him yourself and not caring at all for the sovereignity of others, is nothing else but an infiltration. No, you do not have any right at all do behave like that. You also would not accept it if others would behave like that with regard to your own country.

Not so strange I guess, we haven't seen German as a vassal state since we ended the post ww2 occupation of your country.

that could be argued about. especially the current government knows only vasalls, and nothing else. and it repeatedly has dealt with others like that.

And if you refuse to give up someone like a bin Laden? What then? War is a better alternative?

You accept it. Period. We do not talk of Bin Laden. We talk of an immoral manager suspected of having commited fraud. Leave Bin Laden out of this. As a matter of fact, as I said in my first answer, you actually commit an act of war when infiltrating and kidnapping him in violation of the countries sovereignity and laws.

Nobody is saying you wouldn't have the right to prosecute the hunters if you catch them in accordance with your own laws. So as long as that's understood then go right ahead. I suppose if we really can't deal with it we can always declare war or hit you with sanctions.

Oh, the law of the juingle! I should have known that it all comes down to that level. By that reply you indicate that you accept that Ameican agents kidnapp suspects from other nations not becasue they have a right or it is legeal, but becasue your country thinks it has the bigger club.

And I am realistic enough to very strongly assume that if the BKA would hunt down suspects in your nation in violation with your laws and not letting you know, and remaining secret about that act of violating your sovereignity, that the public outcry would be immense and most of your politicians would be in arms over this act of german aggression and arrogance.

As a matter of fact, the BKA would not even consider it, ever. Becasue our laws end at our borders, like yours have to end at your borders. the BKA has acted in foreign nations indeed. with permission of their goivernments and in lcose cooperations with their police authorities.

Your sarcasm aside, we'll just have to agree to disagree here Skybird. A fugitive from our justice system is still a fugitive whether or not your country decides to shelter him. We'll do whatever we can do to get him back even if it means treading on your self righteous toes a little if you refuse to cooperate.

Then you are the criminal as well, behave by the law of the jungle, and commit an act of war. Your country is not the navel of the earth, and your police has no right to ignore the sovereignity of other nations, and if your laws and eventually your constitution says differently, then that is bad, and a declaration of arrogance and lacking concern.
No sarcasm at all.
The example is not about a nation giving shelter to a manager suspected of fraud. Britain did not deide to giuve him shelter. It even did not knew, and the US completely ignores Britain as if it were not there.
It also means that we are not seen as your allies, but as your vasalls indeed that you see as having to obey your orders, of course. If you really were a freind, you would have a bit more trust into our polices and legal systems as well. It is not that they are all crap and barbarism, and it is not as if american laws are the new definition of "perfect".