[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jumpy

I suppose this is a symptom of the don't tread on me attitude that appears to emanate from the israeli government, and sometimes hedged around here when there is a criticism directed at israel, the accuser is branded as anti-Semitic when all they are really doing is criticising a political regimen and not a race/religion.

Says it all for me, all of the hand wringing and wailing about persecution which in some cases recently has had absolutely nothing to do with anti-Semitism and everything to do with bias and spin for political gain. Too many people seem unable or unwilling to separate the history and racial connotations associated with jews and persecution leading to the cry that any criticism of them must be motivated by something altogether darker than simple foreign policy or human rights issues.

To my mind there's still too much animosity for anyone who has a deep belief here to react in a sensible manner. We all laugh when the 'crazy arabs' declare death to the great satan and burn flags and talk about purging westerners from their lands etc, but there is plenty of the same rhetoric in israeli foreign policy which we all take rather studiously seriously, because 'jews are not funny' or something. I think it's right that we recognise that there are just as many jews or israelis who hold nutty views as anyone else. These articles show clearly how the nutters still have the loudest voice when it comes to defending their point of view to the extent that public institutions are influenced to not invite a speaker as Desmond Tutu to their faculty. Worse yet, reasonable people aquiess to these demands in spite of the obvious contradiction surrounding it.

But again, this is some sort of twisted politics that rely on spin and deception to pursue its goals. We have it here in the UK with most of our nu-lab government, where our collective scorn of their policies and motivation is free from the burden of issues like the holocaust which add emotive dimensions to arguments that ought not to contain or be polluted by such things. I can appreciate peoples concerns in some of these matters, but they're just not looking at the big picture.

The accusation that the state of israel is comparable in some of its actions, to hitler is a very strong one; I dare say this is to an extent hyperbole but you cannot argue that the result of foreign policy action has not led to the death of innocent people, because it has. That we are talking about a governments foreign policy should not be clouded by things like racism and bigotry. But there you go. The same can be said for many of the worlds governments including my own. What kind of administration (and its supporters) cannot stand up to a little criticism without having to resort to the lowest blow of all to defend itself and in doing so sully the memory of so many who suffered so terribly in the past?
Toubling thoughts for me.

I agree that Israeli lobbies often make excessive use of silencing all criticism of Israel by labelling it as anti-semitism. I also see a clear Israel-lobby massively influencing american policies, and sometimes even not hiding from this (for example here: http://www.aipac.org/). But in Europe, we maybe should not give to much for that.

Qutoing by memory, some years ago there was a poll amongst Jews living in Germany. the main organisation we have over here is the "Central Committee of Jews in Germany/Zentralrat der Juden", which often comes with statements about anti-semitism (which to varying degress as a matter of fact does exist in european countries, to make that clear), and lobbying for Israeli policies. However, Jews were asked how many of them would agree to be properly represented by the Zentralrat in their views and opinions, and are supporting it. the bitter truth was: less than 5% agreed. So, a very huge majority indicated they do not like the course of action practiced by the Zentralrat. In a way the Zentralrat is representing a stereotyped image of what Jewish is that it tries so hard to tell Germans they should avoid. that way, it makes a joke out of itself. Because as a matter of fact, no matter the occasional sensational headlines, Jews live well-integrated and fully "normal" in Germany these days, without Non-Jews pointing finger at Jews, or vice versa. Most people simply do not pay attention to these "diffrerences" as being something important. Amazing how normal it all has become again, and of course: it is very good. There are the hotspots, of course, where Jewish communities are object of threat from rightwinged, brown corners, and even more: from Islamic corners. there are the synagogues in such hotspots where police has disributed flyers in the synagogues that after one has done one's visit there one should leave the bulding and move away and should avoid staiyng outside in groups, attracting threats that way. that is bad, and should not be hidden. but one also must ask where these treats come from, and why, and one should not forget that this is not a representative image of general reality over here.