SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - Ken Burns' -THE WAR on PBS

Skyhawk · 09-24-07, 02:45 PM

I just saw the portion of the first episode again that deals with Midway. Almost verbatum:

"The Japanese hoped to lure out the American fleet, destroy them, take the island, then take Hawaii and sue for peace".

The term "hostage" is not even used. They NEVER state in the show that the Midway planning included all of those goals. In fact, the show conveyed the implication that rather than to take and hold any islands long term, the ultimate goal of the plan was to get some leverage on the American psyche and as a result not have the U.S. as an active enemy in the Pacific theater.

Again, I wouldn't presume to know the intentions or "plans" of the Japanese leadership at the time.

If,

it is wrong or impossible for the producers of the show to KNOW what the Japanese plan was (no matter how well their proposition fits in with historical fact: The Japanese did attack the fleet at PH, the Japanese were attempting to draw out the rest of the fleet at Midway when they were "caught"),

Then,

how is it right or possible for anyone else to KNOW what the Japanese plan was?

They can't prove their proposition, it just makes historical sense. But it can't be proved wrong either. How it can be known what they were talking about over their sake back in Tokyo let alone what the real plan was is beyond me. Rhetoric sounds good but is just that, nothing of substance.

The documentary is making a logical historical proposition based on facts, on the other hand we have a differing opinion based on assumptions (it wasn't included in the Midway planning therefore it can't BE, period). Show me the facts that absolutely prove the Japanese had no intention of invading Hawaii. So far the producer's of the show have the attack at PH and a large portion of the Japanese Pacific Fleet sitting off the coast of Midway on their side of the leger. Show me something that exists to make your point. Don't talk about what the program's producers don't know, because they can't prove it! The whole other side of this debate is based on precisely, and only that.

Nope, still not persuaded by an arguement that doesn't exist. :hmm:

EDIT Thank you ussvincennes for adding to the discussion. I am definitely inclined to come to the same conclusions as the producers of the show given the facts you present in addition to what's already been stated. The IJN Naval Order #18 definitely does speak to the mindset and intentions of the Japanese leadership as regards this discussion.

09-24-07, 02:45 PM	#22
Skyhawk A-ganger Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 79 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	I just saw the portion of the first episode again that deals with Midway. Almost verbatum: "The Japanese hoped to lure out the American fleet, destroy them, take the island, then take Hawaii and sue for peace". The term "hostage" is not even used. They NEVER state in the show that the Midway planning included all of those goals. In fact, the show conveyed the implication that rather than to take and hold any islands long term, the ultimate goal of the plan was to get some leverage on the American psyche and as a result not have the U.S. as an active enemy in the Pacific theater. Again, I wouldn't presume to know the intentions or "plans" of the Japanese leadership at the time. If, it is wrong or impossible for the producers of the show to KNOW what the Japanese plan was (no matter how well their proposition fits in with historical fact: The Japanese did attack the fleet at PH, the Japanese were attempting to draw out the rest of the fleet at Midway when they were "caught"), Then, how is it right or possible for anyone else to KNOW what the Japanese plan was? They can't prove their proposition, it just makes historical sense. But it can't be proved wrong either. How it can be known what they were talking about over their sake back in Tokyo let alone what the real plan was is beyond me. Rhetoric sounds good but is just that, nothing of substance. The documentary is making a logical historical proposition based on facts, on the other hand we have a differing opinion based on assumptions (it wasn't included in the Midway planning therefore it can't BE, period). Show me the facts that absolutely prove the Japanese had no intention of invading Hawaii. So far the producer's of the show have the attack at PH and a large portion of the Japanese Pacific Fleet sitting off the coast of Midway on their side of the leger. Show me something that exists to make your point. Don't talk about what the program's producers don't know, because they can't prove it! The whole other side of this debate is based on precisely, and only that. Nope, still not persuaded by an arguement that doesn't exist. :hmm: EDIT Thank you ussvincennes for adding to the discussion. I am definitely inclined to come to the same conclusions as the producers of the show given the facts you present in addition to what's already been stated. The IJN Naval Order #18 definitely does speak to the mindset and intentions of the Japanese leadership as regards this discussion. Last edited by Skyhawk; 09-24-07 at 02:55 PM.