07-09-07, 08:34 PM
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#68
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Stowaway
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Originally Posted by P_Funk
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Originally Posted by waste gate
I appreciate your honesty there P-funk, but you certainly haven't masqueraded anything, to your credit. Since I suspect the only system you've personally known, mom and dad, is just that a marxist, populist system. The parents make the rules(laws), and provide for the health and welfair of the governed, their children. Since that is the only system you have known and you have survived in good health it is not suprising that you are in favor of such systems.
Corporations are made up of people. Those corporations, which you hold in such low regard, also have a responsibility to its employees, to stay in business, not just share holders, who by the way are also people. Not everyone can be a gov't employee, although that seems to be what you are advocating.
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I think you underestimate my own appreciation of my ideas. It is not simply that I am young that I think this way. It is far too simple to attribute that to age. And even if I were older there are other ways you could rationalize it, aside of course from accepting logic or reason as means to achieve a point of view.
As for corporations yes they are made of people. So are governments. The difference between a government and a corporation is that the purpose of government is to pursue the interests of the people as a whole. Corporations have a primary goal to a minority. If governments can be corrupt so can corporations, but which one is acting for your interests? Corporations are effectively a government program for the rich. Those with the means create massive organizations for their ends. These people are shareholders. Citizens are merely shareholders in the government.
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Theres also the fact that often private insurance companies don't deliver what they promise because they serve profit before consumer. I haven't heard anyone explain how that isn't true.
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If that is the case those companies will not be writing policies for very long. The free market will not allow it. If you were to enter a retail establishment, lets say a restaraunt, and it served you rice instead of the potatoes you ordered and when you complained they said too bad for you, would you pay them or go back? No. Would you tell others about your experience? You bet you would and that resaraunt would not be in business long. So I can't see how an insurance company can often get away with that type of behavior.
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What you say makes perfect sense provided you assume that the market works as presribed by your economic model. And for you to expect that to occur is no different than for me to expect a socialist utopia to grow out of a violent dictatorial revolution. The free market is a nice idea but in practise it isn't as fair as is implied. Competition is the heart of the market but the main purpose of all corporations in the process of accruing wealth is to create financial security. And financial security is the opposite of a competitive market. Its a paradoxical theory, especially since lobbies have perverted the laws of the government to make it easier. And corporations don't function like small scale restaurants. Its a false comparison. Corporations operate on a completely differnet economic level.
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There are infact poor people in the USA.
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Medicaid is exactly the means by which 'poor' people may insure themselves. Should we force them to avail themselves to the program?
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Why force them to do anything? Why not just make it free so that when they get hurt they have the coverage they deserve. If it costs a bit more then so be it. Healthcare is an essential. The government shouldn't operate a system based entirely on efficiency of finance. It must also satisfy the most practical level of service primarily, but still within a reasonable finiancial balance.
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Just because at one point a government system wasn't working properly doesn't mean that automatically governmetn programs don't work.
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What has change about gov't which makes this true? I'm open to an answer because at this point I don't know of any change.
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But again you assume that all government programs dont work. Its a fixed perception thats incorrect. If government doesn't work then why do we cling to it? If the market always provides then why do government programs get fiinanced? Its a dichotomy where one is religiously pure and the other is sinfully inefficient. But the reality is so complex that neither is perfectly evil or good. This perpetual love for the market is just another extremist point of view thats only acceptable because its also a mainstream one.
I enjoy pointing to a quote from Bill Maher, commenting Republican's belief that government doesn't work:
"Well of course it doesn't work, the way you do it." |
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I think you underestimate my own appreciation of my ideas. It is not simply that I am young that I think this way. It is far too simple to attribute that to age. And even if I were older there are other ways you could rationalize it, aside of course from accepting logic or reason as means to achieve a point of view.
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I’m not underestimating/diminishing your real belief in your ideas/ideals, or your age. I’m just giving one explanation as to why you may have those ideas/ideals, and’ I think it will change as you get older. My outlook certainly has changed over the years. Although I didn’t advocated your stance, there was a time when my views were more ‘liberal’.
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As for corporations yes they are made of people. So are governments. The difference between a government and a corporation is that the purpose of government is to pursue the interests of the people as a whole. Corporations have a primary goal to a minority. If governments can be corrupt so can corporations, but which one is acting for your interests? Corporations are effectively a government program for the rich. Those with the means create massive organizations for their ends. These people are shareholders. Citizens are merely shareholders in the government.
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OK, when has the Canadian government done what you wanted them to do? If you are of the age of majority then you know that they do not. I never said that government was corrupt. I did imply it is self sustaining on someone else’s dime. Out of curiosity where is the cutoff between the rich and the poor?
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What you say makes perfect sense provided you assume that the market works as presribed by your economic model. And for you to expect that to occur is no different than for me to expect a socialist utopia to grow out of a violent dictatorial revolution. The free market is a nice idea but in practise it isn't as fair as is implied. Competition is the heart of the market but the main purpose of all corporations in the process of accruing wealth is to create financial security. And financial security is the opposite of a competitive market. Its a paradoxical theory, especially since lobbies have perverted the laws of the government to make it easier. And corporations don't function like small scale restaurants. Its a false comparison. Corporations operate on a completely differnet economic level.
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If the government wasn’t already heavily involved in the market it certainly would work!
OK, how else does a corporation better itself without growing profit? That is the same manner that people better themselves and others in the modern world. Lets say for a moment that your utopian society existed. How does one better themselves. Or do you believe that no one should want to get ahead? Because if that is the case then you have disregarded human nature and dare I say it evolution of man. Social evolution is no less valid than biological if you believe in evolution. It can be tracked.
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Why force them to do anything? Why not just make it free so that when they get hurt they have the coverage they deserve. If it costs a bit more then so be it. Healthcare is an essential. The government shouldn't operate a system based entirely on efficiency of finance. It must also satisfy the most practical level of service primarily, but still within a reasonable finiancial balance.
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How hard is it for any one to go to the current medicare office and place ones name on a piece of paper. That is all it takes. Perhaps they know that from then on the gov’t will tell them what to do? The program only invalidates those that the gov’t claims can afford their own insurance. Do you see the hypocracy here? That is the problem allowing buearocracts into healthcare or any other personal endevour.
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I enjoy pointing to a quote from Bill Maher, commenting Republican's belief that government doesn't work:
"Well of course it doesn't work, the way you do it."
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I really enjoy it when you quote comedians. Certainly whom the nation should follow.:rotfl:
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