[Skybird]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

So? The essential laws were already in place. They got toughened? I would think you're the last one here not to comprehend that there's a difference between the means and methods of said Nazi saboteurs versus today's Islamic ones.

Et tu, AvonLady? Twisting words to suit your agenda? False but accurate?

I did not talk about Nazi saboteurs and islamists, I talked about the Gestapo being allowed to arbitrarily arrest whomever they wanted and being convered by valid laws concrning that.

I remember something from later times, when he was already president. I never took note of Bush when he still was in Texas.

Well, then, by all means document it, please. [/quote]

Yes, i may have seen a report or a news or a program or red this or that and here and there - and will remember every detail or sources and origins even years and decades later and for the rest of my life. ASWnuts tried the same on me some days ago. The fact that I cannot remeber if it was on ARD or ZDF, daily news or magazine, and what year, does not mean that I never have seen it. There is a world beyond the internet, you know. and as a matter fo fact we all, you included, spend most of our life with using and referring to knowledge that we gained - although we may no more remember when and how we gained it. That is absolutely the norm. In this reagrd, internet has severley limited what we perceive as reality, like TV before. It only is true if it is linked on the web. Well, if bush can claim the bright to arbitrarily arrest people and hold them unlimited times withoiut ever jusrtifiying by deeds and evidence that this is reasonable, then i can claim the right to refer to memories - even if I cannot refer to an internet source.

For example I also remember quite some stuff about stellar constelaltions and basic astronomy. But don't ask me how I gained that knowledge, and by what books.

Mickey's remarks are disgusting and have no place here.

But what "glass house" are you referring to? :hmm:

The history of postWWII interventions of his own country. Needless to say that I do not see that history as glamourous and sacred as he does.

For an end, I really can only wonder why it is so acceptable for many people if basic laws that are essential to prevent a justice system becoming arbitrarily are cut back more and more, and how it could be considered as an acceptable method if neither the legislative body of a nation nor the people, it's representatives and institutions are allowed to countercheck sentences and procedures that lead to these without ever showing evidence and proof. It also is unacceptable that it makes no more differences is a confession is being gained by the use or force and torture, or not. In the medieval, women confessed they were witches and practices black magic, only to escape further torture. what worth can have a confession have if it is being gained under thread of torture or unlimited imprisonment? It has zero value, none.

That part of the justice system that has been designed and tailored by Bush & Gang and led to the erection of Guantanamo camp, is completely beyond control. And that is extremely dangerous, and has striking similiarities wioth the rules by which the GeStapo or the StaSi were allowed to operate.

Not to accept this taking place is what separates "us" from "them". Giving in to the persuasion to allow it happening that we mimic the standards of "them" (because it appears to make our job of needing to prove accusations instead of taking an accusation as proof for a guilt) is what makes the differences between "us" and "them" disappearing. If we act by the rules "they" are living by - then we are not any better than they are. Instead we are becoming what they are. That is not only a shame, but also a rape of the ideals on which the US once has been founded, and by which they claimed for the better part of their young history that they set new standards of justice, freedom and democracy in the world: but since sometime after WWII, these claims are no longer justified. But nobody, including Nixon, helped to speed this detoriation so massively like Bush did.

Of course, medias and economical oligarchies need to be mentioned too. But that is a different thread.