[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

What if you can't pay, go away and suffer? You obviously don't seem to like the point I am making. If you smoke, you are paying taxes and that counts towards the infrastructure of the country.

Quatsch. The taxes per package sold do not go into the health system, at least not in Germany, they are added to he genral national tax income which is spend to pay for all activities and services of the state - not just health care. the latter is massively financed by individual health insurances. Also, smokers do not pay more taxes in general than non-smokers. And last, in germany we have health insurances, the fees one has to pay intom them do not discriminate between smokers and non-smokers as well. What has taxes goiung into the economy, education, traffic and infrastructure to do with it?

Furthermore, its not as simple as "just stop smoking!" its a lot more complicated than that, some people do not have the will power or where with all to accomplish the task and thus have no choice but to continue to smoke.

Don't make me cry. You must not tell me about this, i have been clinical psychologist, and although it did not specialize in drug abuse treatment, I nevertheless needed to learn about it. If somebody has "no will power", sometimes it helps if he seeks professional help and makes a therapy to raise that will power. Sometimes just a kick in the a$$ also helps. Artificial coma and intense 24-36 hour decontamination of the body also can help in serious cases - the rest is behavioral changes. "I am so weak, i have no will, so I do what I want - could you pay my bill please?" is no excuse - it's an affront. If I would practice as therapist and somebody would come to me and tell me such BS, I would (metaphorically) slap his face. As meditation teacher (that I also worked as) I also kicked people out of their habit to make their self-invented weakness in will responsible for their claim that others have to share their responsebilities, do their work, pay their issues. No chance to avoid that! Get your bu-tt moving, and when I see you are serious in the effort, I will give you the assistance you need. If you don't even try and invest all what is yours before demanding others to invest into you, yo better get away and don't waste my time.

Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances on the face of the earth.

Why the hell are you consuming it then, and if you get sick from it, expect others to pay for your treatment? You play with fire, so expect to get burned. Nobody forces you start playing with fire. But when you start with it you are responsible for the consequences of it. No matter if you are low on will power or not. You - not me, not sombeody else - YOU. - On that matter, I strictly oppose tobacco adverts and selling drugs like these to juveniles below the age of 20, for this reason. the same concerning alcohol.

Not everybody can simply just do it.

That's why there is professional help available. The problem is not so much willingness, but seriously wishing to get away from a drug. that wish often does not raise before the pain has become too much. Therapists know that sometimes they must kick somebody even deeper, or wait until he has fallen deeper himself, before their possebilities of helping can become fruitful. People usually don't do what they do not wish to do, if they can avoid it. But why must others pay for that phlegmatism of theirs?

I think its a disgrace, especially as my parents and their parents have paid into the system all their lives, and are still paying and are denied healthcare.

Don't become abstract by saying "the system". We are talking about a precisely defined port of it only: health care.
I hope they receive that support they need in order to deal with health problems that they suffer from without massively being responsible for it. Things that are caused by aging, usual desease, accidents. All that is fine. But if they suffer lunge cancer and have been smoking, maybe even refuse to stop smoking and start a therpay after the surgeon took away their lunge, I do not see any reason why it is a disgrace that they are expected to pay for all that themselves. If you cause a traffic accident, your insurance will pay. but only when it is clear that you did not intentionally cause tha accident. In the example with your parents, it was them making the decision to smoke, not anybody else. And today nobody can claim anymore that he does not have intellectual understanding of smoking being hazardous to one's health.

Don't be so melodramatic. I know full well the consequences of my actions and I am very 100% respectful of non-smokers which you should know as I mentioned it earlier.

You just refuse to be held responsible for the consequences of your actions you are so very much aware of. That is absurd, you contradict yourself. Your respect for non-smokers ends where you demand them to pay for your smoking-related diseases.

But I absolutely refuse point blank to feel I have an obligation to pay when I am in fact already paying with taxes on tobacco products.

As I said, these taxes do not go into the health system, they are added to the general pot only. And although you choose to challenge your chances and raise your risks, you still do not pay "more" into the pot than those who keep their risks lower that the community have to pay for them, eventually. - If you have become older, you will find that most life insurances you want to enter first try to rate you on your age and health, and the money you have to pay varies accordingly. the higher the risk, the higher the entrance fee. When you have a car, at least in Germany you have to pay less when you already have driven twenty years or so without accident. When you had an accident, the costs for you go up. But when you smoke, it all of a sudden should be any different?

So really you are not spending money on me, if I smoke all my life, I have paid all my life for any treatment I may need. (I wont smoke all my life, but Im just saying)

You haven't payed a "bonus" for the massively increased risks you intentionally have choosen, that'S why I would demand you to pay first with the money you have yourself, and spend it on the purpose (if you have made that experience, you certainly will give it a second thought before continuing with smoking, I promise you). If your money is not sufficient, then we can talk about eventually adding some communal money to make sure that you can cover the costs for basic treatment. Which does not mean that you can demand the luxury room in hospital.

You give me very much the feeling that we talk in circles now, and so please understand that I leave it to this, I see no need to endlessly repeat myself. I have said anything on the issue I have to say. Love it or leave it. Nothing personal, nichts für ungut!