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Originally Posted by SUBMAN1
I don't believe the Soviets could have won. Regardless who says what, the US an its ALlies tied up a tremendous amount of German hardware on the Western Front. I think Germany and the Soviets would have ground to a halt at somewhere inside Russia and some sort of ceasefire would have been formed if the US wasn't involved. Just my opinion.
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Sorry Subman1, but you over looked some issues. First of all Germany could not fight a long war they had one all mighty weakness, that was oil. Germany may a critical error attacking the golden goose of U.S.S.R the logistical planning was dreadful no long term planning what so ever and no planning for winter. Hitler said it in his own words "We must take Russia in six months or it all would be for nothing." The German army was running in to problems as early as July 1941 out running there supply's.
By August / September 1941 they had a big problem on there hands which they had to deal with, that problem was Kiev. There is no way they could drive to Moscow with such a large pocket there in Kiev. The result was they had lost there chance for Moscow, around this time Hitler was changing his plans left, right and centre. Kiev no Stalingrad no Leningrad back to Kiev, Moscow again and so on.
Operation Typhoon was to far late in the day, over two thirds of there tanks had broken down and they called upon horse power how poor was that. Hitler had lost the gamble and lost many troops in the not one step back order.
You look at the soviet losses they were incredible and yet they fought on with what they had. Hitler now moved against Stalingrad in 1942 and yes the Germans were on the move again but they failed to learn the lessons of 1941. And here is the key thing Stalin ordered Operation Mars against Kharkov which ended in a mess but Stalin backed off and let his generals get the job done, unlike Hitler who took it upon himself to run the whole of the Ost Front.
Here is another thing the Germans missed out on in August and September on the Southern front, they controlled the Sky's and could have bombed the major oil fields which would had resulted in a major problems for a good six months to the Russians, but no they had to take them and no one planned out how the hell they were to get that oil back to Germany.
Stalingrad saw the loss of the elite six army and part of the fourth Panzer army for what?
The Soviets now had the upper hand they knew the German tactics, true the Germans stopped the Southern front collapsing when they pulled off the remarkably recapture of Kharkov in March 1943. But Army Group centre suffered a defeat which resulted in another Hitler blunder.
Kursk 1943 saw the last major German assault and the greatest tank battle of WW2. Hitler lost the gamble and was taken by surprise when the Russians went over to the attack after blunting the Germans. Germans losses at this battle resulted in the greatest defeat to come.
1944 saw the destruction of Army group Centre when the Russians launched Operation Bagration and the liberation of Eastern Europe. Yes the Soviets made some bad errors one was the Battle of the Seelow Heights and Berlin 1945 saw them shelling there own side in error.
Germany bled her best troops white in Russia and we in the West faced second line troops, granted not all the time. Hitler failed on his planning of Russia failed to fully motorise the troops failed to produce large number of tanks failed in logistics the list just goes on and on. The German army was the greatest army in 1940/41 but they were wasted on a lost cause with Russia. Even with no supply's from us Russia would had still won by 1946/7 one more thing Germany production was not stepped up until 1943 and by then it was to little and to late.
Subman1, this is not a history lesson just food for thought.