[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

That is not strictly true SUBMAN, the tide began to turn as early as late 1941 when Rommel was beginning to lose in Africa, to the British I might add . Of course, the battle of Stalingrad and the onset of the Russian Winter, that was what stopped the Armies of the Reich dead in their tracks.

I don't agree. I would call it - some successes. The Germans were still completely capable of mounting offensives and even still did when the US entered into Africa. It could have turned back at the British at any point up until that point.

Though Lend-Lease cannot be ignored for its usefulness and assistance not to mention American finance. And Kudos where its due the invasion of German controlled territory and Germany itself.

I never said that the UK wasn't a part of it - and they were an important part of it. I doubt this would have happened though if the US couldn't build 10 tanks to 1 German tank and then deploy them!

Though, America can pat herself on the back all she wants, fact remains, if Japan had not have attacked Pearl Harbour, America might have been quite happy to remain neutral and watch Europe and Asia tear itself apart slugging it out to the finish.

Are you kidding? I hope so. It was well known at the time as well as well known now that we were looking for an excuse to come to the aid of our British brothers. Germany wanted to wait but Japan knew that the US would enter at some point whether they attacked or not, and to stall the US in the Pacific, decided to strike first.

Not that I would blame them for doing that. But I think where a lot of this "revisionist" idea is coming from is that America for decades has churned out a variety of films showing themselves to be the hero of the hour and the one that singlehandedly saved the world from the evil of the Reich, oh and Britain and France and the other allies whoever they are lent a hand too. Take U-571 for example, the most recent one, according to that the US Navy got an enigma box before the Royal Navy did.

That movie was terrible. I hope you aren't serious about this. I don't think anyone in America took it seriously either. It was Hollywood cr*p. I've never been disappointed as much as that after walking out of the theatre, nor did I see anyone else thinking they got their moneys worth. The British had the first enigma machine as I know it. But if you know anything about Enigma machines, this only works for so long as new rev's come out and are distributed. They need to capture throughout the war. The US got one off the US coast somewhere as well.

I think its all to easy to look back and say oh America, without them we'd have been stuffed, end of. The devil is in the detail, maybe this is all being read wrong and perhaps history is focussing on our accomplishments in the war and what the European powers did to fight the Nazis and the successes we made. Thats not to say that the contributions of the USA are overlooked, we know full well you singlehandedly stuffed the Japanese and assisted us at the same time in the final battles with the Reich, and with lend lease and money etc. And yeah, I think most of us know in Europe without America things could have been a LOT more ugly than they were.

Please don't say 'final' battles - that is complete rubbish as you UK'rs like to say. I think you would have never defeated Germany without the US help. You would have ended in a stalemate.

To my mind, if you can pat yourselves on the back for what you succeeded in doing in the war, why can't we do the same for our successes in the war? A long time has been spent looking at what Uncle Sam did and being grateful, maybe, people want to know what we did.

That's what I think anyway.

I don't think a single person could ay that the British did nothing in the war. The proper question is, could America have defeated the Germans without their help? The answer is no. Could they have defeated them without the help of the Soviets? The answer is no. Technically, the US could have, but in actuallity, it would have been long and bloody unless the atomic bomb was used. The long and bloody part is the very reason the US could not take on Germany and win - it has to do with democracy. In a democracy, the people cannot and will not wage war for over a certain number of years. The same thing is happening today in Iraq. The same thing is also happening to the British in Iraq. It is an impossibility. The people tire of the war and pullout out. The only time this is not a factor is when you have no choice due to invasion. This is the down side of any democracy.

WWII was won in the west because both the British and the Americans worked together. Without either, Germany would probably still be controlled by the Third Reich. I think the Soviets would have continued on longer if the West gave up, but doubt they would have defeated Hitler either. Only the combination of all three saved the day.

One more thing - The atomic bomb was given the go ahead for Nagasaki and Horoshima simply because the US gov didn't think the American people had the stomach to finish the job. They were probably right.

Just my 2 cents.

-S