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Hottentot · 11-17-06, 05:14 AM

Hi Steeltrap

Even though I'm not JordanC, I'd like to point out some aspects of modern sub sims that you might have missed. Just like you, I'm just telling my opinion and this is in no way meant to be flame or anything like that.

The biggest misconception that you (and some other people as well) seem to have is, that modern subs are just fire-and-forget platforms. While it is true that they have powerful sensors that can detect targets from miles away and while it is true that modern torpedoes have active searching system, the firing solution is still made by the player.
The ocean is vast and targets are usually small, often other submarines. Most torpedoes in Dangerous Waters (the only modern sub sim that I have played) have range of about 10 nautical miles. The target might be much further away. Then again, he can be much closer too and your torpedo may overshoot. You could of course set the torpedo to search for the target at once, but then your torpedo will zig-zag, therefore slowing down a bit and giving your opponent more time to evade. Or even better, it could lock on a civilian oil tanker and blow it up instead of the intended target. Usually there is much more traffic in the mission than just player's sub and his target.
Things get bit easier when hunting surface targets (a carrier, for example), because they make more noise. The downside is, that they are usually heavily protected. Therefore your could launch a torpedo, but if you don't know exactly where the carrier is, your torpedo can once again lock on a wrong target. Usually you don't get a second chance either: when you launch a torpedo, everyone with a half brain can see the bearing where it's coming from. You don't usually get many new friends that way, but lots of attention is assured.

I think the "fire-and-forget" stereotype is born when people try to put a modern submarine to do WWII submarine's job. If you have active searching torpedoes and anti ship missiles, of course slaughtering merchants is easier than with steam powered torpedoes of early Silent Hunter 3. But in SH3 you still have to avoid sinking neutral merchants in the convoy. The same is true with modern subs. You can't just fire and forget.
Also, in the modern sub, launching torpedoes is more of a precision work. Imagine that you find a convoy totally consisting of enemy ships. In Silent Hunter you would freely choose and try to sink the biggest targets, in Dangerous waters your mission might be to sink that simple coastal merchant in the middle of the convoy without harming any others.
I'm not trying to oversimplify WWII sims by any means. I'm just trying to point out, that you can't just shoot blindly neither in Silent Hunter nor in Dangerous Waters.

Sometimes I have difficulties understanding the comparison of modern and WWII era sims (not pointing anyone with fingers here, just a general statement.)
I play both, I enjoy both and in both I find different challenges. In Silent Hunter there is a thrill of hunting: from a weak sound contact to finally seeing your unaware target trough the periscope, plotting his course and speed, intercepting and finally sinking him.
In Dangerous Waters it's the thrill of hide-and-seek game. My towed array picks up a faint contact that I can't identify. Could it be the sub I've been looking for, or is it yet another fishing boat? If it is a sub, has he heard me yet, or can I go closer? How much information I need to make a good firing solution? How long can I plot it without fear that he is currently trying to do the same?
Or, in a different scenario, I pick up sound contact of enemy task force loud and clear. Which of those contacts if the ship I'm supposed to sink? What kind of escorts do they have? Are they close enough for me to launch a salvo? What about their aircover or possible submarine escorts?

Finally I'd suggest that you would try Dangerous Waters out, if you you haven't already and get a chance to do so. The full version gives much wider picture of the sim, though the demo is also pretty good if I remember correctly. There should also be a multiplayer demo, so if you'd like to try it out, I'd be happy to sink some tonnage with you and so would surely be many people over at Subsim's Dangerous Waters forum. I also hope that, if they ever read this thread, they will give a bit better explanation instead of this poorly written rambling of mine.

Just my humble opinions.

11-17-06, 05:14 AM	#30
Hottentot Sea Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: My private socialist utopia of Finland Posts: 1,918 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Hi Steeltrap Even though I'm not JordanC, I'd like to point out some aspects of modern sub sims that you might have missed. Just like you, I'm just telling my opinion and this is in no way meant to be flame or anything like that. The biggest misconception that you (and some other people as well) seem to have is, that modern subs are just fire-and-forget platforms. While it is true that they have powerful sensors that can detect targets from miles away and while it is true that modern torpedoes have active searching system, the firing solution is still made by the player. The ocean is vast and targets are usually small, often other submarines. Most torpedoes in Dangerous Waters (the only modern sub sim that I have played) have range of about 10 nautical miles. The target might be much further away. Then again, he can be much closer too and your torpedo may overshoot. You could of course set the torpedo to search for the target at once, but then your torpedo will zig-zag, therefore slowing down a bit and giving your opponent more time to evade. Or even better, it could lock on a civilian oil tanker and blow it up instead of the intended target. Usually there is much more traffic in the mission than just player's sub and his target. Things get bit easier when hunting surface targets (a carrier, for example), because they make more noise. The downside is, that they are usually heavily protected. Therefore your could launch a torpedo, but if you don't know exactly where the carrier is, your torpedo can once again lock on a wrong target. Usually you don't get a second chance either: when you launch a torpedo, everyone with a half brain can see the bearing where it's coming from. You don't usually get many new friends that way, but lots of attention is assured. I think the "fire-and-forget" stereotype is born when people try to put a modern submarine to do WWII submarine's job. If you have active searching torpedoes and anti ship missiles, of course slaughtering merchants is easier than with steam powered torpedoes of early Silent Hunter 3. But in SH3 you still have to avoid sinking neutral merchants in the convoy. The same is true with modern subs. You can't just fire and forget. Also, in the modern sub, launching torpedoes is more of a precision work. Imagine that you find a convoy totally consisting of enemy ships. In Silent Hunter you would freely choose and try to sink the biggest targets, in Dangerous waters your mission might be to sink that simple coastal merchant in the middle of the convoy without harming any others. I'm not trying to oversimplify WWII sims by any means. I'm just trying to point out, that you can't just shoot blindly neither in Silent Hunter nor in Dangerous Waters. Sometimes I have difficulties understanding the comparison of modern and WWII era sims (not pointing anyone with fingers here, just a general statement.) I play both, I enjoy both and in both I find different challenges. In Silent Hunter there is a thrill of hunting: from a weak sound contact to finally seeing your unaware target trough the periscope, plotting his course and speed, intercepting and finally sinking him. In Dangerous Waters it's the thrill of hide-and-seek game. My towed array picks up a faint contact that I can't identify. Could it be the sub I've been looking for, or is it yet another fishing boat? If it is a sub, has he heard me yet, or can I go closer? How much information I need to make a good firing solution? How long can I plot it without fear that he is currently trying to do the same? Or, in a different scenario, I pick up sound contact of enemy task force loud and clear. Which of those contacts if the ship I'm supposed to sink? What kind of escorts do they have? Are they close enough for me to launch a salvo? What about their aircover or possible submarine escorts? Finally I'd suggest that you would try Dangerous Waters out, if you you haven't already and get a chance to do so. The full version gives much wider picture of the sim, though the demo is also pretty good if I remember correctly. There should also be a multiplayer demo, so if you'd like to try it out, I'd be happy to sink some tonnage with you and so would surely be many people over at Subsim's Dangerous Waters forum. I also hope that, if they ever read this thread, they will give a bit better explanation instead of this poorly written rambling of mine. Just my humble opinions. __________________ Хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда.