[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

hmmm, interesting. I also agree that some people view subs as "king" of the game/seas, and that they think they are invincible. but one thing with the submarine, is that once you fire a torpedo and it explodes, there is now a long 'blue-out' period where it becomes very hard to find anything with sonar. this can allow a sly submarine commander() to commence his escape, wich will start complicating things for the surface vessel.

That reflects the distance scale over which you chose to play. EVERYONE on the board doesn't always experience that, and even when they do, relative to the amount of time it takes to transit the distances in the scenario, it may just be a bat of the eyelash.

Suppose you wanted to set up a barrier patrol between Bear Island and the Norwegian coast, okay? It takes over a full day to go from one side to the other at 5kts. Does a few minutes of broadband noise make a big difference? Not really. You might lose contact for that period of time, and if you only had a very tenuous hold on the bad guy he might be tipped off by the explosion and quickly slink away, but that minute or so of noise isn't a big deal to me in terms of my tactics. I suspect if I had a tenuous hold on him and lost it, I'd probably be able to pick it up again later unless he'd already essentially gotten past me.

and if the sub gets below the sonic layer, you can kiss it good bye.

Depending on the layer depth, you might be able to put your towed array below the layer. Also, being on opposite sides of the layer limits the sub's sensors too. As you get closer to a surface combattant, the layer isn't as effective at stopping sonar because it only reflects rays impinging at a shallow angle. Without specific knowledge, it isn't clear at all how detectable an SSK might be.

but what you said is also true, but for a submarine commander to put himself in that position is not a very smart commander.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Since an SSK has to go slow, it's maneuvering options are quite limited. He really is at the mercy of what a surface group chooses to do. The SSK operator also has to operate with a degree of uncertainty about what the enemy's sensors can do, and in the absense of a periscope sighting, specific knowledge about where the target is located and what he's doing.

they must think ahead before firing a torpedo, so they can get off a shot with minimal counter detection.

That's true. I'd argue that due to the limited ability of an SSK to maneuver in the face of a quickly advancing surface group, this isn't always possible. It'd probably always be possible to take out a surface combattant, but the high value units, the ones you really want to get because they influence the outcome fo the war, are not at all easy to get at.

A lowly kilo class can even sink a carrier in a battle group .. like i just said, if a sub commander is smart enough and thinks about these things, it will be very difficult for a surface vessel to get a hit on the sub.

That's true, but he doesn't really need to hit the sub to do his job. Surface combattants are COMBATTANTS. They're expected to take a hit every now and then. They're charged with protecting important ships that are of value to the theatre commander, such as combat logistics ships, gators and aircraft carriers. If an SSK has to punch through the screening forces by shooting a surface combattant in order to get to the high value ships, the SSK has already lost, because as soon as he shoots he's localized, and will be prosecuted by the remaining ships. That also means the important ships (CLF, carriers, gators) are going to be quickly moved someplace where the commander of the group feels there's less of a submarine threat.

So what it pretty much comes down to is whichever commander is more intellegent will win.

I'd also say there's a hearty dose of good luck thrown in there too.