[Iceman]

Originally Posted by scandium

What you just don't get is that Iraq has already been turned into precisely just that; pre-invasion it was a weak, contained, sovereign and secular dictatorship. Saddam Hussein, whatever his other failings, had no love for religious extremism within his borders and took pains to ruthlessly crush and supress any kind of extremism in Iraq, religious based or otherwise since it posed a threat to his power. Now that he's been removed, and the Iraqi civil service and military disbanded, a power vacuum was instantly created with the U.S. military presence serving as a powerful rallying point for the Imans and Jihads to rally the ordinary Iraqis (and former, now unemployed soldiers) against and it also served as an ideal battlefield for foreign Jihadists to easily cross its porous borders and take the fight to the U.S.

Bad trade off for the Iraqis, who are dying in far greater numbers than under Hussein even when he was at his most brutal (while the rest are simply worse off in every way and ideal prey for Jihadi rhetoric), bad trade off for the U.S. which has invested 2600+ now dead true patriots and over a trillion dollars for nothing more than billions in no-bid contracts for Halliburton and Co., and bad trade for the region which has become further destabilized with new generations ready to be indoctrinated into Jihad and get live fire training to practice and perfect their tactics... and bad trade for all of us because they will export their new experience and methods and recruits to our soil soon enough.

Remove the U.S. military and if nothing else you remove the rallying cause, because keeping them there is already pointless. That war is already lost and was lost years ago.

So you prove the wickedness of your own thinking here and can't even see it.If we behave like Saddam did and rule this immoral Muslim people with an Iron Hand and make them submit or die....this is the Roman mentality of the past.What you suggest is to abandon the women and children,the sick and elderly,the imfirmed and give them over to the wolf on a silver platter...is that what your superior thinking has lead you to believe Scandium or Skybird?

Your "I told you so" mentality is frankly a little annoying. It is easy to see what you see.You point out the obvious.You condemn my president on 9/11 in his reaction and yet he re-acted EXACTLY like ALL Americans did.We were arrogant in our thinking that this tradegy could never happen to America.It was our wake up call.We are awake now...and your call to abandon the Iraqi people now is worse than staying.It is unaccpetable to me to simply leave.We,Americans I think are not really concerned with what the rest of the World thinks we will act on our own behalf and go it alone if neccessary because that's who we are.We do not ask for your permission or help.We are survivors.We have survived all the past tribulations we will survive the ones to come.

Anything worth a damn is worth fighting for.Peace is worth fighting for.Freedom is worth fighting for.Fighting against evil is worth fighting for.The men I see calling for the utter destruction of Israel and America are Evil.I have yet to see President Bush call for the destruction of Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran or North Korea....

You live in the fantasy land you choose to Scandium or Skybird....a spade is a spade.These men who blow themselves up in the name of God need to be met head on....I myself prefer to meet them in they're own lands now instead of my own.I agree there is no easy solution they're never is is there but leaving is not an option.I agree the extreme Muslims will NEVER change...and to stay will most surley bring more innocent deaths on all sides but to leave is more insane than staying and you gotta know that.