[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Amizaur

The "we are the best and no one other even close" syndrom ;-) I can understand it easily as Collins at slow speeds is much quieter than 688s or 688is, and have excelent sensors, also I can easily imagine US commanders being surprised that any OTHER navy knows how to can operate submarines ;-))

Yeah... but what you're not hearing about is an exercise where the SSK we had simulating an enemy sub reported sinking a destroyer, and in the reconstruction we looked at the report, looked at each other, and said, "but... there wasn't any destroyer in the exercise?" I wonder if they saw any mermaids...

It's not like the rest of the world isn't giving US commanders plenty of reason to believe they're the best, believe me. Although honestly, it's not that we're that good necessarily, it's that most of them are that bad, lemme tell ya. I think the most challenging thing for any submarine is having any really good idea of what's going on around it at all. I've seen enough stuff to be led to believe that real masters of sonar and TMA are rare at best, and most submarines from every nation sort of wander the ocean, dazed and confused and by a combination of statistics, patience, and the fact that nobody happens to notice them, manage to be able to inflict awful damage upon their adversary.

Now this has surprised me more, because the Trafalgar is comparable quiet as a running Kilo, according to some data the Trafalgar is little quieter (of course Kilo becomes much quieter when stationary),

Trafalgar = nuke
Kilo = diesel electric

Diesel electrics on the battery are obnoxiously quiet compared to nukes. If the data is unclassified, it's most likely unreliable, or else meaningless. Unless someone sticks a gram in front of you and a bunch of oceanographic data to go with it, nothing you hear about the relative "noisyness" of any particular submarine really means anything.

And most importantly, I don't suppose the RN commanders and crew to underestimate the threat or poor/wrong tactics. To sink several Trafalgars that were hunting you, without being killed, well it's quite a achievement I guess ? :-)

If Americans can do it, why can't Brits?

I could easily imagine Kilo being not detected, if staying dead in the water (or on the bottom), but up to now didn't think they are able to detect, track and engage the hunting Trafalgars.

One of the tough things about going after SSKs is that to detect them, you often need to get close. Even if they can't detect you, necessarily, all they often need to do is detect your weapons launch, because you're so close, their counterfire becomes very effective. Then it just boils down to a battle of statistics, what's your torpedo's Pk versus his? In light of that, it's not impossible at all for someone to get 4 kills and 0 losses just on counterfire.

Then again, in a different place or at a different time of the year, everything could be different. Without specifics, it's impossible to understand exactly what happened, or even attempt to reconstruct the exercise.

Anyway, I wanted to ask if anyone knows more details about those exercises (Strong Resolve, at least three years) and the Trafalgar's being "sunk" by Kilo ? Any info about tactics or ROE of the exercises ?
Or is it known fact at all ? I suppose it's little frustrating for RN commanders :-)

Someone probably does, but they won't be able to tell you. Specifics of these kinds of things are not generally for public consumption.