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Old 03-15-23, 10:27 AM   #13
Ostfriese
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Northern Germany
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Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
If you say so. I do not parrot the offical proganda, that I am certainly guilty of and that is what makes me unwelcomed.
Instead you are parroting someone else's propaganda. That's even worse.

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The policy in SPD run states as well as the development of performance/skill indices over the past ten years speak a clear language, and what it says is no compliment. The growing performance deficits get hidden by manipulating the notes system, and the verbally glossing it. Itr even happens that the political administration orders for a wanted minimum note avergae in classes and so teachers have no other choice than to rate exams better than the work deserves. And this I know from teachers.
This has nothing to do with teachers or with the SPD, but has been a policy since the 1960s. And btw., you are talking about grades. Notes are played with musical instruments.

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Add to this a growing numerical deficit in teachers due to demographic changes, an extremely far left leaning union
There are two unions, one is left leaning (GEW), the other is moderately conservative in the European sense (Philologenverband). None is far left.


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and school buildings in most shabby states due to lacking financial funds for renovations
That is the first time you mention a real problem. This is due to

a) many school buildings having been built in the late 1960s or during the 1970s and now reaching a state in which they require serious modernization efforts.
b) school buildings being paid from county or local budgets rather than state or federal budgets - and with the counties, cities and other communes being chronically underfinanced, thanks to the "Schwarze Null" (literally "black zero", meaning no new debts made by the federal government), which was by the way implemented by the conservative CDU and the neo-liberal FDP.

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plus a growing ideological indoctrination that replaces solid basic education
And we are back to right wing hogwash.

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...three quarterss of the teachers were men[...] Now they have: three quarters of the teachers are women [...]and the teaching has been clearly "feminised"
Today's lesson: women are worse teachers. Because they are women. Never figured you as a misogynist, but here we are.

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Across Germany, the performance indices have dropped in recent 30 years. The rate of early leavers from school is climbing.
Misleading statement #1. Performance indices have mostly been maintained or even increased in the upper tier, the rate of early leavers has increased in the lower tiers.
For the non-Germans: German secondary education offers three tiers. the lowest tier was originally called the "Volksschule", was renamed to "Hauptschule" in the 1960s, and offered a basic education up until grade/year 9, and it was meant to teach the typical blue-collar work force. The intermediate tier is called "Realschule" and offers an education up until grade/year 10, with the aim of creating the foundation for all sorts of artisans and craftspeople, but also for many jobs in administration, accounting and many more. Both tiers lead to degrees that require further schooling in vocational schools, which is done once or twice a week during the apprenticeship years. Many jobs which require a college degree in English speaking countries ar done in vocational education in Germany.

The upper tier ("Gymnasium", which has nothing to do with the English gym) offers 13 years of education and is supposed to create the basis for studying at a university.

Guess which tier receives the highest budgets and has most available teachers.

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The quota of students not able to correctly read and write or do basic maths, is climbingg.
Misleading statement #2. Ironically the rates haven't changed that much, but the problem has only become more obvious. As the "Gymnasium" has been heavily favored over the past decades more and more parents have decided to send their children there. Whereas only about 15% of those born in the 1950s, 20% of those born in the 1960s and about 25% of those born in the 1970s attended a "Gymnasium" it's 55% of those born in the 2000s and close to 60% of those born in the 2010s (quite a lot of those will drop into a lower tier before they finish school).

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Where Germany has improved in international comparisons, this is explained by that the others to which you compare them dropped even further, and these usually all are in the West, not in Asia.
International comparisons are a surprisingly bad indicator, to the point that they don't even fulfil miniaml scientific standards. There's a lot of bad methoding included, and -of course- a lot of cheating.

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At the same time universities complain about that new students are lacking more and more in most profound skills and abilities to start studying, starting with understanding written questions, handwriting with correct spelling and grammar, or doing simple mathematical calculations like addition, subtraction, rule of three or simple fractions.
This is, again, a correct statement, and it's a result of the bloating up of the Gymnasium. Of those born in the 1970s only a quarter eventually went on to study at a university, and these almost entirely came from the top third of all students. These days a lot of people from the second third and even people from the bottom third try their luck at universities - and fail.

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then you know how the chances of German students internationally are, and how their chances are to sustain the German economy in the future.
Again: the top third of German students have statistically improved and surpassed previous generations. They have always had and continue to have excellent chances internationally, and these people are far more than capable of sustaining the German economy (unless managements continue with their bull****, that is, but that's an entirely different problem).

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We know since long where the preferances of most students are: Germans tend to favour soft and social subjects and humanities, Germanistik, Psychologie , VWL, BWL. Not engineering. Not so much Physics. not so much IT. Chemistry. That is all so - so cold-hearted. And difficult.
And they all have their places. Psychology, btw., is a seriously difficult subject, as it heavily relies on maths (statistics, to be precise), and there's a good reason why aspiring psycholgy students are required to have excellent grades at school.

While it is true that the number of STEM students (MINT in German) has not increased as much as the number of students in other areas this again is a result of the bloating of the Gymnasium. The killer subject is maths - those capable of doing maths usually are in the top third (there are exceptions, of course).

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In Asia it is more or less the other way around.
No. That might be the perception in the West and a result of the heavy drill (especially in South Korean and Japanese schools), but in the end the tendencies are more or less the same.


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Add to this the massive brain drain Germany has
Another slogan which can often be read on odd portals like achgut, yet mostly wrong.

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politicians
They are a problem that we can definitely agree on. Parliaments have become the cloisters and monastries of the modern age: the place where the upper class can get rid of their unneeded offsprings.

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Add to it the probably highest electricity prices in the West.
True, but that's got nothing to do with education.

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Add to it the highest tax burden in global comparison.
No. The northern countries have higher tax rates, for example.

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All this contributes to the attrarctiveness - or lack of - in global economic competition.
And once more there is a right wing talking point which doesn't stand the test of reality, especially if one was to look beyond the big names. Many smaller German companies produce top notch stuff and are world leaders in their respective fields, both technologically and in terms of competition. However, a lot of things can only be done internationally anyway.

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The rotting of traffic infrastructure. Bridges.
Schwarze Null again. If you don't invest in infrastructure for years or even decades that will always be the result.

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Germany produces too little students of the kind it needs, too many of those that end as receivers of subventions and social wellfare
In the grand scheme that's not correct. We send too many people to university that would be better served with apprenticeships.

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it drives away too many skilled or highly qualified people or parents with young families
People follow the money. That's capitalism for you.

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...IT sector or healthcare...
Yep, prime example. Why do so few want to work in health care? Because it's a back-breaking, lowly-paid job. Higher wages would surely helpp, and of course doing everything to make the job more attractive.
But as long as healthcare is supposed to be a profitable business we are heading down right the same way as the US - ever increasing costs for health care with ever decreasing services, while a few rich ****ers drain the money from the system.

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...do not want to work and so the vast majority of that migration ends up as a net movemet into the social wellfare system.
Yet one more right wing buzzword and scare tactic, but the number of people who don't want to work but could work if they wanted to is very small. Again: pay the people better wages, and the problem will mostly solve itself.
Migration brings a lot of people who will eventually do the menial tasks most Germans no longer want to do.

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But irony, even sarcasm, does not mean that I am not right. It indicates my level of frustration, and anger.
As I said: there are serious problems, and you even mentioned some in your postings, but overall I think you have read far too much nonsensical articles from very dubious (to put it mildly) sources like achgut and other pages you frequently quote in these forums. For the most parts your statements are parroted lines which lack any substance and don't survive the first serious comparison with reality.

Last edited by Ostfriese; 03-15-23 at 10:44 AM.
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