Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar1469
Hi all, BH.
On my first early war campaign, somewhere near Truk. Found a convoy with 2 destroyers and 4 merchants. After a failed/sucessful attack (tried several times), those two destroyers converge on me like there is no tomorrow.
As soon as I release the fish, I dive to 400 ft (with a gar), running silent, 1 knot, and no matter where I turn to, no matter how long, those two little cans always reck me up with DC's. I was under the impression that early war sonar would not reach that deep.
They do loose track of me for a bit, then ping around, and with me sitting there at 400ft, even 0 knots, silent running, they somehow magically find me and drop the DC with surgeon precision on top of me... Am I assuming something wrong?
I am using the Mod as described with no other extras except for "no trembling" - underwater screencaps and a skin (SH4_original_4k_light_gray).
Thanks!
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Well, once they spot the wakes of torpedoes or ship is torpedoed, AI assumes you are in X position. So they go towards it, and AI shifts from "normal" mode to "alert" mode, which heightens their sensitivity to contacts and they go searching. They are likely detecting you on active sonar once searching and make their attack. There are a variety of factors that play into things such as sea state, weather, thermal layer, RPM's you motors are making, silent running, skill level, and model of passive/active sonar the vessel is equipped with.
Definitely never want to go to 0 knts, sitting still, you are a easy stationary target. They know where you, what depth you're sitting at and kind of easy to hit. Even 1 knot is too slow, just make sure on silent running and hit ahead 1/3. Look at RPM gauge in the conning tower by the helmsman. It'll read around 80 RPM which is fine. In a silent running, long as under 100 RPM 0 knot or 1 knot, is just too slow, makes a easy target.
Honestly, should never just go right to 400 feet for several reasons. One, in Gar. Tambor with test depth of 250, 400 is really pushing it. as its out of that 100 foot safety window. Yes, can go deeper but danger of immediate hull collapse is heightened by depth charge explosions. SH 4 does simulate the different effects. Pressures caused by DC at different depths. You take a good DC hit at 400 feet, the effects are multiplied quite a bit more than would at say 350. Has to do with hull strength, max depth, etc. I won't bore you with all testing details, but I tested this extensively when making the mod.
A great tactic to use in any boat but will refer to Gar since you are in a Gar Class.
First, instead of 400, go to 250ft, your test depth in a Gar. They come in, pinging you , getting a read on you, thinking you are at 250 ft. Listening carefully, when you hear the roar of their engines because are above, about to drop, , go to ahead full for about 30 seconds and BEFORE they drop, just after they stop pinging(you are in the DD's blind spot for a few seconds" ordered 450 feet so your boat goes in a dive, but as close 300 feet, hit the "A" key to level off around 300 feet. Once hear splashes of DC dropping water, go ahead FLANK until hear some DC explosions. This "speed burst" will get you out from under most charges. After the run go all stop and let the momentum carry you for next minute or so, then go ahead 1/3 again. Next run go to 325 ft, then 350 and even 375. Try bouncing back up to 350 and 325, then back to 375. Over time, changes confuse the AI. You should noticed when pull this off correctly,( esp in earlier war as depth charges in early war are different than the Type 2 used in later war) that most, sometimes all of the explosion will be above your sub, at the last depth they pinged you before dropping. Example...you were at 250 feet when they pinged you last, you are at 300 feet when charges detonate, likely will all
be above or most.
Course changes...always keep about 5-10 degrees rudder on. I keep 10 on and then when they are about to drop I go to rudder admiships for duration of the speed burst, then go 10-15 after for a few minutes while the momentum of sub slows, then back to 5 degrees rudder in OPPOSITE direction it was at time of the DC attack. After couple runs and rudder is to port, go to starboard. This keeps you from going in a strait course/line and confuses the AI. This was a real tactic used by skippers, among them Admiral Thomas Dykers, CO of USS JACK.
Basically, rinse and repeat these procedures and you can get away most of the time.
Enemy AI is on a timer, appears to be hardcoded, basically if they go X amount of time without solid contact on you, they will give up but if regain contact, clock starts over usually. You, as real subs had to do, have basically endure the counter attack and outlast them. Far as them losing you, and regaining contact, that happens and did happen during the war.
I just finished getting depth charged in a Gato (so quite similar to Gar) in November 1944 in Area 9-East China Sea South of Tsushima (Korea) Strait.
Max depth is 315 feet. I survived using tactics above, with minimal damage in this attack. Never went below 300 feet.
I've been depth charged many times since started this career in January 1944 and never went below 400 feet on purpose, one DC pattern above me when I was at 395 ft(Im in a Gato with test depth of 300 ft vs 250 in a Gar) pushed me to 410 briefly but never went below on purpose and survived.
Other factors that play in into this again are the escorts skills level set in the files, as well as their mission. Escorts assigned to convoys do not tend to hunt for as long, (some will) while those assigned to independent patrol, will hunt you quite a bit longer. Again, there are different variables which can influence this.
One reason I redesigned the damage model and depth charges in TMO was so player could stay at a realistic and safe operating depth, get depth charges for hours and not get killed via "insta death" i.e. charges put too many hit points on the sub and hull collapsed. Subs were usually lost because over time key equipment was knocked out, combined with flooding from leaks caused etc and had to surface or could not surface. Now, very close charges can still cause hull damage and on rare occasion total collapse. Again, depends on boat what depth etc are.
Far as depth enemy sonar can reach you. In real life I believe its a misconception the Japanese sonar could not reach beyond certain depth in any phase of the war. In early war boats rarely went below 300-350 feet. Most boats at start had their test depth of 250 until Gatos came round. Of course they found boats could go deeper , that test depths were conservative estimates but Japanese could track them and force them deep. I twas their depth charges used early on were setting for 250 ft (which I believe was early exploders max depth) and then 300 ft, well a idiot Congressman by name of Andrew J. May bragged to press about this and Japanese found out, introduced Type 2 depth charge with exploders could be set deeper.
Then we had deep diving boats from mid 1943 on in the Balao, which could go quite deep and Japanese were surprisingly using active sonar to track them at 500+ feet. Even before their more advanced late war sets were in service.
Far as TMO sonar depth goes, there is no magic depth to get away, if there were, it would get boring quick all player would have to do is go to x depth. Again, depends on a variety of factors as listed above. Again, you have to outlast them until they give up. Make them lost solid contact with you(They may continue to ping, drop charges etc but does not mean have solid contact. )
While there is no magic "get away depth" , different models of sonar passive and active, become less effective at different depths. The default early war sound and each ranging gear the Type 93-1A(Active) and 93-1P(Passive)
were far too ineffective, to the point I found early war TMO boring. Early war was no cake walk. Read plenty of early patrol reports, subs often took hours and hours of beatings by depth charges.
With the 93-1A and 1-P, basically, player had to get to 300 or so feet and could easily escape, would be lucky if a DC attack lasted 20 minutes in most cases.
So I removed the early war and gave nearly all of them mid war gear from the start. Some have a mix of the early Type 93-3A and 3P. This mad early war escorts more effective and not total incompetent pushovers were previously, in most cases.
Finally, you said escorts were two destroyers, I assume actual DD's , if actual DD's , you likely ran into some top notch escorts, set to ELITE skill level. They can be a challenge.
Hope this helps. Let me know if have anymore questions.