[Sailor Steve]

Wednesday, July 9, 1919

PARIS PEACE CONFERENCE

M Pichon’s Room, Quai d’Orsay, Paris, 15:30

Meeting of the Heads of Delegations of the Five Great Powers


1. (Nominations continue for the Commission of Inquiry into the Incidents at Fiume.)

For Great Britain, General Watts is appointed.

S Crespi says that he cannot at present nominate an Italian officer. He thinks that there will be an officer on the spot and it is agreed that he should join his colleagues at Fiume and be sent the same instructions as are given to them.

(It is agreed that the officers nominated should attend the Council the following day at 15:30 to receive their instructions. As it is not possible for General Watts to be present, it is agreed that General Thwaites should attend to receive instructions in his stead. It is also agreed that General Cavallero should attend to receive instructions in place of the Italian officer to be nominated.)


2. M Clemenceau asks if any of his colleagues has any news from Italy.

Mr Balfour says he has nothing save what he had shown the Chairman on the previous day. Though there is a British Admiral and a British colonel commanding a battalion in Fiume, he has received no news from them. He had telephoned to London, asking for more news to be sent him.

S Crespi says that he has received a dispatch from S Nitti and one from Fiume. It appears from these dispatches that no incidents have occurred since Sunday. In any case, the Italian Government is determined to maintain order.

M Clemenceau says that the French Military Attaché in Rome again reports the words of General Albricci, to which he had previously alluded. The French Ambassador is also of the opinion that an attempt is being made to influence the Conference.

S Crespi says that he is quite sure this is a complete misunderstanding.


3. S Crespi says that he is not able to reply at once to the document handed to him by M Clemenceau on the previous day. He will, however, furnish a reply at the next meeting.


4. Mr Lansing says that, before taking up the subjects on the Agenda, he wishes to draw attention to a despatch he had received two days previously from Warsaw. It is to the affect that the retiring German troops are removing horses, cattle, agricultural implements and everything necessary for the cultivation of the next harvest. This might be the act of irresponsible soldiery, but it is necessary to put a stop to it.

M Clemenceau proposes that M Dutasta should proceed at once to the Germans at Versailles and make a formal complaint to them on behalf of the Council.

(This is agreed to.)


5. (On Mr Balfour’s proposal, it is agreed to summon the Bulgarian Government to send a Delegation to Paris to receive the Peace Terms. The Secretary-General is asked to take the necessary steps.)


6. Mr Lansing proposes that this question should be taken up before the first question on the Agenda. He thinks the two questions are connected and that the means of action should be determined before addressing any communication to Bela Kun.

(At this stage, the Military Representatives of the Supreme War Council at Versailles and General Thwaites enter the room.)

General Bliss is asked to make a statement and says that all that is necessary was mentioned in the report.

The report is then read by M Mantoux.

Mr Balfour says that he does not doubt that the appreciation of the Military Representatives is accurate. If the Allied Powers, France, Great Britain, Italy, Romania, Czechoslovakia and Serbia, are too weak to deal with one recalcitrant power, the position was one of great humiliation. That, perhaps, does not matter much, but Bela Kun is turning Hungary into a military stronghold of revolution. Budapest has become an armed camp and all the factories are making munitions. Propaganda is being carried on in the most dangerous fashion in the neighboring countries. If the Allies must sit still and see the Armistice broken before their eyes, they are bound to lose prestige. Central Europe is likely to lose more than prestige. The Bulgarians have just been summoned to Paris to hear the Peace Terms. Is it likely that they will obey if they see that the Allies cannot even coerce a fragment of the late Austro-Hungarian monarchy? The Bulgarians are only half disarmed and would feel that they can defy the Conference. The situation in Central Europe is both difficult and critical. The wave of disturbance might go west as well as east. The situation would, he thinks, grow more critical if it is manifest that the Conference cannot control a small and defeated nation, which is not only breaking the terms of the Armistice, but, in alliance with the Russian Soviet Government, attempting to cause general revolution. He does not favour wild military adventures, but he does not like a confession of impotence.

Mr Lansing says that he has nothing to add to what Mr Balfour had said. He thinks Allied prestige should be maintained. Bolshevism will spread to Austria if it appears to be successful in Hungary. He wonders whether the contribution suggested for Serbia in the report of the Military Representatives was not underestimated. He is not aware that Serbia is fighting or anticipated fighting on any other front. He therefore suggests that the Military Representatives should get into touch with the authorities of Czechoslovakia, Serbia and Romania, in order to find out what these States can do to help.

M Clemenceau says that he must remind Mr Balfour and Mr Lansing that there were neither British nor American troops at hand. The French have two divisions, but other help will be required. He suggests that the Military Representatives, after conferring as suggested by Mr Lansing, should return, together with Marshal Foch, and tell the Council what results they had obtained. He feels sure that Marshal Foch would ask for British and American troops.

Mr Balfour says it will be necessary for him to summon Sir Henry Wilson. Only the British Cabinet can decide whether any British troops are to be employed. He will ask Sir Henry Wilson to consult the Cabinet before fining over to Paris, in order that he might be in a position to state what could be done.

General Bliss observes that it will not be of much use for the Military Representatives to consult the Czech, Serbian and Romanian military authorities as to the number of troops at their disposal, unless there are means of knowing whether their Governments would consent to give troops for this purpose or not.

Mr Lansing says that perhaps the best course would be to confer with the heads of the Czechoslovak, Yugoslav and Romanian Delegations in Paris.

(It is then agreed that the Heads of the Czechoslovak, Yugoslav and Romanian Delegations be invited to attend the Council on Friday, 11th July, and that Marshal Foch and Sir Henry Wilson be also asked to be present, in order to discuss the possibility of military action against Hungary.)

(At this stage the Military Representatives of the Supreme War Council at Versailles and General Thwaites withdraw.)


7. The Council has before them the following documents:

1) A Report of the Financial Commission. Sale of Securities by Government of Bela Kun

2) A draft Joint Note of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers to the Allied, Associated and Neutral Powers and to the Government of the German Empire and of Austria.

3) A draft Joint Note of the Governments of the Allied and Associated Powers to Bela Kun.

4) A draft communication to the Press.

Mr. Lansing thinks that the result of the previous discussion shows that no action can usefully be taken at present.

Mr Balfour thinks that there can be no harm in telling Bela Kun, on behalf of the Conference, that he is considered to be a thief. He might take no notice of it and put the communication in the waste paper basket, but it could do him no harm. He thinks Bela Kun should be warned that his right to steal funds for his own political purposes is not recognised. He does not think that the letters drafted are very suitably worded, but, in substance, he thinks they might be adopted.

Mr Lansing says that his objection refers specially to the note addressed to Bela Kun. He does not like threats which cannot be followed by action. He thinks the less the Conference has to do with him the better, and the less he is regarded as a power the better. The letter addressed to other Governments and that addressed to the Press, he does not object to. He thinks they will produce the desired effect without a direct threat to Bela Kun. He also points out that the expressions “Bolshevik” and “Communist” should be expunged from these letters.

Mr Balfour says that he would not object to the omission of the document addressed to Bela Kun, which he admits is not likely to have much effect on him.

S Crespi says that the question has been closely examined in the Commission. It has been recognized that the letter addressed to Bela Kun will not produce much effect, but it is necessary, before taking action in Allied countries regarding the sales of securities, to furnish such action with a legal ground. The only legal ground in this instance can be an official protest against the anticipated action of the Hungarians. The letter is therefore proposed for its legal rather than for its political effect.

Mr Lansing says that he cannot agree with this point of view. A lawless government, unrecognized by any other government, has no legal standing at all. He thinks the Allies will have as strong a legal position whether they inform an outlaw that he is doing wrong or whether they address no remonstrances to him at all.

S Crespi then suggests that the three letters should be sent back to the Commission to be re-drafted in such a manner as to contain a clear declaration that the Allied Powers define Bela Kun’s proceedings as thefts. The drafting will be done in accordance with the views expressed by Mr Balfour and Mr Lansing.

(This is agreed to, and S Crespi undertakes to obtain a re-draft by the Financial Commission.)


(At this point, M Tardieu, Mr Nicolson, Mr Leeper and S Vannutelli-Rey entered the room.)

8. The Council has before them the recommendations of the Yugoslav Committee. These and Hungary recommendations are adopted.

(The Experts then withdraw.)


9. Mr Lansing says that he is unable to act on this subject. He must take the Convention to Washington. The Economic side of the question has not been discussed in America. He suggests that as the matter does not really concern the Peace Conference it might be carried through by ordinary diplomatic methods.

After some further discussion Mr Lansing agrees that the Convention might be discussed inasmuch as it concerns European Powers - American adhesion being reserved.

(It is decided that the subject be put on the Agenda for the following day on this understanding.)


(At this point the Military Representatives enter the room.)

10. General Bliss says that a short time ago the Council of Four had sent to the Military Representatives at Versailles a of project of Mr Winston Churchill’s for repatriating the Czechoslovak troops in Siberia. These troops numbered some 60,000 men. The proposal combined the repatriation of these troops with a movement regarded as useful to the Allied cause. One group of 30,000 men at present in the neighborhood of Omsk was to operate on Kolchak’s right flank and to gain contact with the North Russian forces, and thus to reach Archangel. The other portion was to be repatriated by sea in American ships from Vladivostok. The Military Representatives are asked to examine this proposal together with Czechoslovak authorities. He himself has an interview with Mr Benes - as a consequence of which Mr Benes had attended a meeting at Versailles. Before agreeing to the movement of Czechoslovak troops to Archangel, Mr Benes wishes to know whether Allied troops will remain in Northern Russia or whether they will be removed before winter, irrespective of the arrival of the Czechs in time for shipment from Archangel before the port is icebound. Thus the matter cannot be proceeded with until it is known whether or not the Allied forces in North Russia will await the arrival of the Czechoslovaks. He had written a letter to that effect which hitherto had remained unanswered.

Mr Balfour says that at the time of Mr Winston Churchill’s proposal there had been, he understood, a fair prospect of a junction of the Czechoslovak forces with the Inter-Allied troops in North Russia. Since Kolchak’s reverses this junction appeared less probable; in fact there now seems to be little chance for the Czechoslovaks of reaching the White Sea before the ice set in. The question for them, therefore, is whether the Allied troops will wait for them. He is informed that the British Government means to withdraw its troops before the winter. If the Czechs therefore are unable to reach Archangel before November, he could not promise that they would find British troops awaiting them. He believes that the same applies to the other Allied contingents in North Russia. If this is so it appears to follow that all the Czech troops must be repatriated from Vladivostok. The result of this will be that part of the Siberian Railway will be deprived of the troops guarding it and Kolchak would have to fill the gap. Therefore, the only point to be dealt with immediately is the question whether Allied troops will stay in North Russia through the winter. As far as Great Britain is concerned, the answer is “No”.

M Pichon said that the French Government also means to recall the French troops from Archangel. He points out that the withdrawal of the Czechoslovaks had a very serious result on the whole situation in Siberia.

General Beun states that these troops are guarding 1300 kilometres of railway. If withdrawn they must be replaced. It appears that Japan and the United States must be called upon to fill the gap. The Czechs are at present along the central portion of the line. The Japanese and American troops lay to the east of them. As the Czechs are moved towards Vladivostok the American and Japanese might move westward into their place. There were at the present time 5,000 Czechs in Vladivostok. Their immediate shipment will give some satisfaction to opinion in Czechoslovakia.

S Crespi says that Italian action will be in conformity with French and British action.

Mr Matsui says that Mr Churchill had inquired some time ago whether Japanese troops could replace the Czechoslovaks on the Siberian Railway. He is now informed that it is the question of finding troops to guard 1300 kilometres. The Japanese General had not felt authorized to reply without consulting his Government. He doubts whether there are enough Japanese troops in Siberia to undertake so large a task. If more are required he is not at present able to say what view the Japanese Government will take. He has already telegraphed to his Government on the subject and will do so again.

Mr Lansing says that the problem now before the Council appears to be a military one with which he could not deal. The political question is whether the Czechoslovaks should be evacuated from Siberia. The answer to this is in the affirmative, provided it is militarily possible.

M Pichon says it will be possible if the Americans will send a few troops to reinforce the Japanese.

General Bliss says he thinks this cannot be done. American troops have been sent to Siberia to help the Czechoslovaks to leave it. Once the Czechoslovaks have left there will be no pretext to justify the retention of American troops in the country.

M Pichon says that if the United States will not take on the task it remained for the Japanese to do so; otherwise the whole country would become a prey to Bolshevism.

Mr Matsui says that he is not in a position to state whether the Japanese Government would undertake so much. He will consult them and say that the Conference desires that Japan should be responsible for the guarding of the Siberian Railway.

Mr Balfour says that the question now being discussed is not the one on the Agenda. Without knowing how much the American and Japanese Governments are prepared to do it is difficult to see any solution to the military difficulty which has been raised.

Mr Lansing says that the question on the Agenda is whether the Czechs cab be shipped from Archangel. The answer to this is in the negative. They must, therefore, be shipped from Vladivostok.

M Clemenceau says that as Mr Lansing expresses no hope of American assistance it is desirable to know whether the Conference wishes to invite Japan to undertake the defense of the Siberian Railway.

Mr Lansing says that before giving a final answer he would like to consult Washington. He suggests that the Government at Washington should be consulted by the President of the Conference.

(It is then agreed that the Military Representatives at Versailles should prepare a draft dispatch to be sent by M Clemenceau to the American and Japanese Governments regarding the necessity of providing for the defense of the Siberian Railway after the evacuation of the Czechoslovak troops.)


11. (The Report of the Representatives is accepted.)


12. Mr Lansing observes that this question was one between France, Great Britain and Italy, and that America is not concerned.

M Clemenceau, alluding to documents appended, asks S Crespi how many troops Italy is prepared to send.

S Crespi says that Italy will send two battalions if Great Britain sends two.

Mr Balfour says he was not prepared to say how many British troops will be sent.

M Clemenceau says that he does not support the proposals made by General Franchet d’Esperey that there should be three British battalions and two Italian, while there are two French divisions in the country. France has no special interest in Bulgaria. He personally does not care who possesses Cavalla. He does not agree to maintain two French Divisions in Bulgaria while Great Britain has only one platoon, and Italy two battalions. The French Army is being demobilized, and a number of the troops in Bulgaria will be automatically recalled. In his opinion, there should be an Inter-Allied occupation in equal shares, or none.

General Bliss says that on the 9th June the Military Representatives had made recommendations, which had been approved on the 16th June by the Council of Four. It had been agreed that two French Divisions should be maintained, and that Great Britain and Italy should both be represented. On consultation, Great Britain had offered one platoon, and Italy one battalion. Now General Franchet d’Esperey calls attention to the insufficiency of the British and Italian contribution.

M Clemenceau says that the situation has changed, as he is now forced to demobilize, and remove his troops from Bulgaria, unless his Allies take their share. The only Great Power which has not been demobilized is Italy. Why they have not done so is their business. The only people with interests at stake in Bulgaria are the Greeks, and they sent their troops to Smyrna.

S Crespi says that M Clemenceau has more than once declared that Italy had not demobilized. He wishes to make a formal and official statement that Italy has demobilized as much as France, and had even demobilized one class more than France.

M Clemenceau says that if that is so, Italy could take her share of the watch on Bulgaria. Meanwhile, she is sending 40,000 troops across the Black Sea to Baku.

MS Crespi says that the British Government has requested that the British troops in the Caucasus be relieved by the Italians. He is not aware that Italy has as yet decided to send even one man.

M Clemenceau says that he has nevertheless received official telegrams in support of what he said.

General Cavallero said that he has just given General Thwaites a statement in complete contradiction of the information mentioned by M Clemenceau.

(It is then decided to refer to the Military Representatives at Versailles the question of devising means for an equal Inter-Allied occupation of Bulgaria.)


13. M Clemenceau announces that, according to the Havas Agency, the Weimar Assembly has ratified the Treaty, the Rhine Convention, and the Protocols of the Treaty, by 208 votes against 115.

(The Meeting then adjourns.)