Quote:
Originally Posted by August
Well I don't know about international law but reading this debate I am struck that while nations are seen by some as artificial and illegitimate constructs they bandy about equally artificial constructs themselves as if they were any more legitimate.
When you come right down to it terms like "Bavarian" or "Catalonian" mean exactly the same thing as "Germany" or "Spain" but just on a smaller scale, and the question is how small do these invented territorial subdivisions have to go before the dissenting voices within their boundaries can be legitimately ignored when it comes to things like national independence referendums?
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In principle as small as it gets by itself. City states. Happened to be the rule in ancient Greece - the claimed cradle of democracy. Nedless to say, that easy it was not, sinc eonly 5-15% of the poulaiton of a Greek polis actually held the status of citizens, but i explained all that before, and repeatedly so.
The more important and relevant question is how to keep big players from eating smaller ones. That is the one question I so far have not heard a convincing answer to, nor do I claim that I have one. Hoppe, Brennan, and others, tried to give answers, yes - but they are not realistic, in my opinion, are too much trusting in optimism and ignoring unplessant, hostile realities.
But that is also part of the truth I say: that if a people deciding to spolit away from a bigger union, mustknow that it then has to live by its own ability, ahs to come zup itself for the costs - and must by itself be able and strong enough to keep the sharks away. And I always said that. I said the Scottish are aelcome to fall out fo the Engolish union if theyx want - but they shall not expect that the eU embraces them with open arms (it would, but I am against it). The Catalunyans are free to end their union with the Spaniards, but they have no claim that Europe then must come up for their financial bills. Desriing Brexit is perfecly legaöl and fine, and I amk against the attempts of the EU to turn it into a punishment of these impertinent rebels darign to put their desire for sovereignty over the demand of Brussole to rule over them. The eu should soberly deal with them on a trade agreement basis, and dismiss all the attached, non-economic stuff - yeS: but beyond that, it either nwill work for the UK late roin, or not. And if Bavaria would vote to drop out of the federal structure oif germany, ti must care itself then to come up with its costs, eo9cnomic needfs, and protection.
You cannot claim to be sovreign and indeoendent if you depend on others and accept your sovereiongty suspended over economic and finciaol needs. Eiether oyu are independent, or you are not. Just claiming to be, but needing the bother to pays your bills - that is not what independence and sovereignty means.
In other words:
it is about strength. And not every social, cultural, ethnic entity indeed is strong enough ti beocme truly independent and sovereign. Size has somethign to do with it, whether that is plltially ocrrect or not to point out. Its reality.
What is just not legitimate is that one group says because it benefits from living in a union with another group, the other group has no right to leave that union. If the latter wnats to leave, the first group only may seek to make the union more attroacve to stay in or to make itself more attraicve as a partner. That way the first group can and is allowed to try convincing the other to stay. But it has no claim to demand that, command that, even to use force to enforce that. That is nothing else but conquest, subjugation, imperialsim.