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Oberon · 11-02-17, 08:23 AM

Relations between the DPRK and China have been steadily declining since the 2000s, to the point that it's not unreasonable to think that a few of those North Korean missiles have Chinese destinations on them. That's not to say that some transfers haven't taken place, but in a lot of instances they have been done through the black market rather than directly, and it's not impossible that Beijing had little to no idea exactly what was being transferred, or they've sold something to North Korea for civilian usage and it's been illegally turned to military use.
The most recent and relevant example of this would be this:

Which is a truck designed for hauling timber, but has since found itself hauling logs of a different kind:

But in regards to actual missile technology, that's a little harder to obtain, not impossible mind, but harder. A lot of the tech that North Korea is using right now was obtained back in the late 1990s early 2000s during the fall of the Soviet Union. Their submarines come from ten old Golf SSBs that they got for 'scrapping' in 1993 from Russia. China also got one around the same time, which they used for SLBM designing and testing. The North Korean missiles come from old Russian designs, with some technology potentially stolen from a Ukrainian factory, but we're not so sure about that one yet. There's a possibility that the DPRK got an intact R-27 SLBM from Russia, probably around the time that the Soviet Union collapsed, and have been working on making designs based on what they've learned from it. Understand that none of this (aside from the Golf SSBs) is likely done with the agreement of the states that the DPRK is getting the stuff from, especially when it comes to the little stuff, coils of wire, electronics, that kind of thing. It'll all be done through shell companies and then it'll be shipped to the border between China and the DPRK and will just 'go missing' like so much other stuff around there. The amount of corruption in the border states is pretty damn high because the money flows pretty easily and everyone wants to be a rich man.
In regards to their nuclear stuff, you've got to look to Pakistan for that, not right now of course, but back in the 1990s the DPRK sent some guys over to Islamabad for a while and they got a lot of learning from Pakistans top nuclear scientists. It's also not impossible that the DPRK has some moles or some friendly people in the Chinese nuclear program, after all there are still some hardline Communists in the PRC who would look on the DPRK like Mao looked on it. But for the likes of Xi Jinping, the DPRK is an embarrasment and a constant thorn in their side. However, geographically it's a useful thorn and one that stops the US from being on their doorstep.
The PRC recently had a chat with South Korea, they've been agreeing to normalise relations again after they recently soured a bit because of the THAAD deployment. Trade between Seoul and Beijing is worth a lot, probably more so than trade between Pyongyang and Beijing. So one shouldn't assume that the PRC is always going to be on the DPRKs side...North Korea certainly doesn't, which is why they've conducted at least two missile tests on days which the PRC have been trying to conduct their own great schemes. Xi Jinpings great Belt and Road vision announcement...which was completely overshadowed when the DPRK test fired its new Hwasong-12 IRBM, and then the BRICs meeting which was lost in the lower headlines after the DPRK detonated its first H-bomb.
It's a very awkward situation, Beijing is trying to keep things cordial, but the fact that Xi and Kim haven't met face to face in the five years that Xi has been in power. Kim Jong-il went to China at least two or three times by train, and visited Russia about the same. Jong-un hasn't left the DPRK since he took office AFAIK.
Now, Iran on the other hand, the DPRK and Iran have had quite a good working relationship when it comes to missile technology, if you compare missiles that the two nations own you'll see a lot of similarities. It's not unreasonable to assume that North Korean nuclear technicians were also involved in the Iranian program until it recently froze. It would make a lot of sense.

So, there is some outside involvement in the DPRKs programs, but probably not in the ways that most people assume.

11-02-17, 08:23 AM	#15
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Relations between the DPRK and China have been steadily declining since the 2000s, to the point that it's not unreasonable to think that a few of those North Korean missiles have Chinese destinations on them. That's not to say that some transfers haven't taken place, but in a lot of instances they have been done through the black market rather than directly, and it's not impossible that Beijing had little to no idea exactly what was being transferred, or they've sold something to North Korea for civilian usage and it's been illegally turned to military use. The most recent and relevant example of this would be this: Which is a truck designed for hauling timber, but has since found itself hauling logs of a different kind: But in regards to actual missile technology, that's a little harder to obtain, not impossible mind, but harder. A lot of the tech that North Korea is using right now was obtained back in the late 1990s early 2000s during the fall of the Soviet Union. Their submarines come from ten old Golf SSBs that they got for 'scrapping' in 1993 from Russia. China also got one around the same time, which they used for SLBM designing and testing. The North Korean missiles come from old Russian designs, with some technology potentially stolen from a Ukrainian factory, but we're not so sure about that one yet. There's a possibility that the DPRK got an intact R-27 SLBM from Russia, probably around the time that the Soviet Union collapsed, and have been working on making designs based on what they've learned from it. Understand that none of this (aside from the Golf SSBs) is likely done with the agreement of the states that the DPRK is getting the stuff from, especially when it comes to the little stuff, coils of wire, electronics, that kind of thing. It'll all be done through shell companies and then it'll be shipped to the border between China and the DPRK and will just 'go missing' like so much other stuff around there. The amount of corruption in the border states is pretty damn high because the money flows pretty easily and everyone wants to be a rich man. In regards to their nuclear stuff, you've got to look to Pakistan for that, not right now of course, but back in the 1990s the DPRK sent some guys over to Islamabad for a while and they got a lot of learning from Pakistans top nuclear scientists. It's also not impossible that the DPRK has some moles or some friendly people in the Chinese nuclear program, after all there are still some hardline Communists in the PRC who would look on the DPRK like Mao looked on it. But for the likes of Xi Jinping, the DPRK is an embarrasment and a constant thorn in their side. However, geographically it's a useful thorn and one that stops the US from being on their doorstep. The PRC recently had a chat with South Korea, they've been agreeing to normalise relations again after they recently soured a bit because of the THAAD deployment. Trade between Seoul and Beijing is worth a lot, probably more so than trade between Pyongyang and Beijing. So one shouldn't assume that the PRC is always going to be on the DPRKs side...North Korea certainly doesn't, which is why they've conducted at least two missile tests on days which the PRC have been trying to conduct their own great schemes. Xi Jinpings great Belt and Road vision announcement...which was completely overshadowed when the DPRK test fired its new Hwasong-12 IRBM, and then the BRICs meeting which was lost in the lower headlines after the DPRK detonated its first H-bomb. It's a very awkward situation, Beijing is trying to keep things cordial, but the fact that Xi and Kim haven't met face to face in the five years that Xi has been in power. Kim Jong-il went to China at least two or three times by train, and visited Russia about the same. Jong-un hasn't left the DPRK since he took office AFAIK. Now, Iran on the other hand, the DPRK and Iran have had quite a good working relationship when it comes to missile technology, if you compare missiles that the two nations own you'll see a lot of similarities. It's not unreasonable to assume that North Korean nuclear technicians were also involved in the Iranian program until it recently froze. It would make a lot of sense. So, there is some outside involvement in the DPRKs programs, but probably not in the ways that most people assume.