Thread: FOTRS vs TMO?
View Single Post
Old 09-13-17, 02:29 PM   #20
Rockin Robbins
Navy Seal
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: DeLand, FL
Posts: 8,900
Downloads: 135
Uploads: 52


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mav87th View Post
As an owner of both the original paper "Die Handels Flotten der Welt 1942" and "Suchliste für Schiffsnamen" (an adendum for the first) and the US counterpart ONI-208J they sure as hell had info on a lot of ships in the world. Remember most of the ships were build way before the war, and most were known models that any liner company could order from shipbuilders. All that info went into these "manuals" - correct masts could be extended or chopped, but the length were hard to remanufator.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1dytqlrd6p...95144.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m7scn3gs5w...93520.jpg?dl=0

In my german ship book the updates were glued in by the original owner.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0w5etbomu...93555.jpg?dl=0

Example - our Hog Islander tanker below
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kmbdfktxmc...93916.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2ovll8f2d...94038.jpg?dl=0

119 meters long and 16,5 meters in mast height.

Most interesting for CapnScurvy might be page 23 of ONI-208J in the revised version. And notice how all measurements are taken from deck and not waterline, as the waterline are suspect to change from how much the ship was laden.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4ha4zavzpoymsc/p23.png?dl=0


Best regards
Mav87th
According to studies after the war using Japanese records, less than half the ships sunk by American submarines during the war were properly identified, as was necessary in a stadimeter based attack. Many Japanese ships were disguised so that their masthead and cabin heights were altered from their official numbers. Many of the ships shot at by American torpedoes did not even appear in the recognition manuals at all! "I don't see it in the recognition manual so I can't shoot it" was not acceptable to skippers or the brass. So they shot without the information they needed, sometimes hitting the targets.

Skippers requested the OTC mod but were refused because CapnScurvy wasn't born yet!

The Japanese went so far as to manufacture one line of ships that were half scale models of a ship they knew was in the US recognition manual. They were very crafty, considering their poor ability to produce new ships.

The Germans had it much better in the Atlantic, with Liberty ships being cookie cutter fairly identical ships that accumulated experience could nail down. But U-Boats didn't generally depend on target identification to shoot torpedoes, usually using constant bearing techniques that didn't give a horse's patootie what they were shooting at.

And the Germans pressed in for that short shot that the Capn hates so much. In combat errors happen and the best strategy is one that can toss all those errors in the trash. Get 500 yards/meters away and shoot a spread. Turn out the lights, the party's over.

As for "anybody can hit from there," once they get there, yes. But how many have the cajones to get that close. Americans were famous for taking 3000 yard shots that had a very low probability of success. That's why the U-Boats made better submarines look bad in the accuracy department.

But when the smoke cleared, American boats were head and shoulders above the world, sinking 23 ships and 101,923 tons per sub lost, with the Germans left in the dust at only 3.6 ships and 18,565 tons per lost sub. outdated German sub quality, operational errors and just bad strategy, along with superior Allied ASW just produced an environment where the German subs had no chance, in spite of the fact that their recognition manuals were better.

Finally, simulations can't answer the question of what was. But they are great an answering the question "what if?" And "what if the recognition manual contained accurate information on every single ship on the ocean" is one of those legitimate questions. As is "if I had perfect information and reliable equipment, could I hit what I shot at?" OTC will be an available plugin for FOTRSU. I'd consider the mod very incomplete if OTC weren't available. Players deserve to be able to answer those questions.

Many, many skippers during the real war would have given anything to know those answers too. I believe that there were just enough unknown variables that many good skippers lost their commands because of wrong decisions of the Pearl and Australian brass. Some skippers, such as Joe Enright, even derated themselves for reason not their fault. Most of the time, factors beyond their control caused them to be successful or unsuccessful. I'm reading a book right now, "Tyger," about just that during ship to ship battles of the Napoleonic wars. In war, it is very likely you can do everything right and die.

Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 09-13-17 at 02:47 PM.
Rockin Robbins is offline   Reply With Quote