SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - Destroyers Discussion what were you guys on?

gouldjg · 05-17-06, 04:58 AM

My long speech :rotfl: :rotfl:

Whilst I think the slating of people’s time and efforts is a little out of order on your part, I do think that some points you observed hold valid and if you are going to produce better, I am happy to help with what I got from the DD thread. I am not going into the "I only wanted to provoke topic discussion" its lame and half of those to its directed are not here to defend anyway.

Ok people should never expect to see eye to eye when it comes to realism and gameplay but to me, publicly highlighting other modders flaws is what makes players stop playing the game period because they start to feel that the game is broke period and will never be fixed. As we know, many things are coming and are still to come, 12 months after release. Lets not start giving the perception that the game is broke and others are making it worse. Bad community spirit imho.

CB always stated he was not interested in releasing a claimed fix or claiming that he cracked the DD code. He just went with what was giving him more of a challenge compared to stock. People just asked him for his version and he therefore provided and provided ample warning about his views.

You will note when reading the full thread that I was not really into all the dramatic changes concerned with sim.cfg. After feeling like I was losing that argument and admittingly knowing I really had not enough knowledge of the historical aspects of DD sensors as well as the time to spend testing the campaign etc, I politely dropped out into the background but always keep my own little setup as to what I think adds to my personal gameplay a bit like what the other members did..

I cannot speak for GW team as I only did part time and left the modding scene in the middle of development, RL took over for a while. I do know that they followed the DD discussion closely and went with the best info to date. I think many players quite like it so they may not have been on anything except a view to pleasing the majority with what info was available.

You can very well say "what were they on?" but lets put credit where credit was due, things were discovered by every member and although it was no DEV team super piece of work, the whole thread was about discovery. At the time there was no alternative, no future patches, No Dev team contact. The shame is that it did split in the end and too many people were happy to accept the proposals because it did make their game a little more challenging for a while.

1. Vanilla game had Uber active sonar lock that in some cases was impossible to evade. Jungman

2. 1.4b patch bought the pin point DC, I think many players will notice that there is now enough time to evade DC as long as one was not lazy or unlucky when DD went abeam so steps were made good from the DD thread. Redwine, Myself

3. Hydrophone ranges were Just too toned down IMHO, (has always been my main nitpick) I just add 5000 meters to each Hydrophone and make all sensitivity = 0.03 which seemed to match what sim cfg prefered. That way I cannot really fly in from the side without running silent and in some cases having to manually adjust speed to 1 knot also. My view is I should always get head and be prepared or take the shot and then have to evade because that was the gamble then and it is now IMO. The others took the different road.

4. Despite whatever the lost contact time was, the DD just fail to do any kind of Historical search patterns and just rush back to convoy. Even the hunter groups do this. Why the devs did not include this is why we all have different views and to some extent why people think the DD are dumb. I hope Sh4 make sure that DD do have a least a couple of search patterns and historical pinning tactics but will they really have players pinned for 11 hours etc. In the meantime, my best solution is to use the chaos file and randomise the above as it then adds a sense of human factors into what will become with any sensor model, a predictable game. I am holding onto the chaos file for a while because I need to determine sound base mods to which to place randomisation. Each maker mod need to produce what they believe suits the majority of their players without forcing them to use SH3 commander. I understand that, so I am trying to help GW get a Ship model up.

No what I gotta ask is this and please do not be offended by the questions,

What are you proposing (in English please)?

Are you not just suggesting yet another wild method that to some extent will only be similar to what CB discovered which is, the game is broke, we have to cheat the DD sensors to get variety and challenge?

What help do you need?

Is your proposal going to add variety, and actually produce a better DD?

And on a personal note, will I be able to randomise it without ruining a mathematical absolute formular that leaves little options for those of us whom isn’t so hardcore?

More importantly, Is this going to be a NYGM only product or will others be able to participate and benefit from it and have the right to attempt to tone it down on the realism aspect should it seem to detract from its equal share of gameplay.

I lay my cards on the table at this point,

I have a 100% interest ultimately with a future Chaos file used in conjunction with Sh3 commander.

I have diddled with bits of the game so much that I see the only way I will ever get a lasting buzz, is to have a slight "not knowing what to expect feeling but expect the worse" Chaos file will do that for me.

I need to be able to choose a sound base mod

I need to choose a well balanced ship damage model capable of being randomised up or down according to my realism taste.

I need to get a decent air mod, again capable of being randomised to make me think.

I need a sub mod that although should not leak as much as a fixed number solution provides (Hollywood), it should also not take the chance away for a exciting battle of repair and pannic. I.e. a randomised sub model.

I need a middle ground DD setting that again can be randomised to have lucky/unlucky feel and add a sense that a human may be in the DD.

Later as more doors open = more options i.e. a randomised secondary explosion mod.

All this is possible but we now have two teams whom do not see eye to eye = I have to wait longer

I really think a bit of humble pie on both sides is needed and then at last we can bash ideas of eachother to save hours and hours of testing time which is ultimately forcing players to wait more.

If thrown to the community and You and Kpt agree to disagree but decide to share knowledge and possibly modding ideas and inter mod options, I think we will get a really happy community. Is that too impossible to ask?

05-17-06, 04:58 AM	#26
gouldjg Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 881 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	My long speech :rotfl: :rotfl: Whilst I think the slating of people’s time and efforts is a little out of order on your part, I do think that some points you observed hold valid and if you are going to produce better, I am happy to help with what I got from the DD thread. I am not going into the "I only wanted to provoke topic discussion" its lame and half of those to its directed are not here to defend anyway. Ok people should never expect to see eye to eye when it comes to realism and gameplay but to me, publicly highlighting other modders flaws is what makes players stop playing the game period because they start to feel that the game is broke period and will never be fixed. As we know, many things are coming and are still to come, 12 months after release. Lets not start giving the perception that the game is broke and others are making it worse. Bad community spirit imho. CB always stated he was not interested in releasing a claimed fix or claiming that he cracked the DD code. He just went with what was giving him more of a challenge compared to stock. People just asked him for his version and he therefore provided and provided ample warning about his views. You will note when reading the full thread that I was not really into all the dramatic changes concerned with sim.cfg. After feeling like I was losing that argument and admittingly knowing I really had not enough knowledge of the historical aspects of DD sensors as well as the time to spend testing the campaign etc, I politely dropped out into the background but always keep my own little setup as to what I think adds to my personal gameplay a bit like what the other members did.. I cannot speak for GW team as I only did part time and left the modding scene in the middle of development, RL took over for a while. I do know that they followed the DD discussion closely and went with the best info to date. I think many players quite like it so they may not have been on anything except a view to pleasing the majority with what info was available. You can very well say "what were they on?" but lets put credit where credit was due, things were discovered by every member and although it was no DEV team super piece of work, the whole thread was about discovery. At the time there was no alternative, no future patches, No Dev team contact. The shame is that it did split in the end and too many people were happy to accept the proposals because it did make their game a little more challenging for a while. 1. Vanilla game had Uber active sonar lock that in some cases was impossible to evade. Jungman 2. 1.4b patch bought the pin point DC, I think many players will notice that there is now enough time to evade DC as long as one was not lazy or unlucky when DD went abeam so steps were made good from the DD thread. Redwine, Myself 3. Hydrophone ranges were Just too toned down IMHO, (has always been my main nitpick) I just add 5000 meters to each Hydrophone and make all sensitivity = 0.03 which seemed to match what sim cfg prefered. That way I cannot really fly in from the side without running silent and in some cases having to manually adjust speed to 1 knot also. My view is I should always get head and be prepared or take the shot and then have to evade because that was the gamble then and it is now IMO. The others took the different road. 4. Despite whatever the lost contact time was, the DD just fail to do any kind of Historical search patterns and just rush back to convoy. Even the hunter groups do this. Why the devs did not include this is why we all have different views and to some extent why people think the DD are dumb. I hope Sh4 make sure that DD do have a least a couple of search patterns and historical pinning tactics but will they really have players pinned for 11 hours etc. In the meantime, my best solution is to use the chaos file and randomise the above as it then adds a sense of human factors into what will become with any sensor model, a predictable game. I am holding onto the chaos file for a while because I need to determine sound base mods to which to place randomisation. Each maker mod need to produce what they believe suits the majority of their players without forcing them to use SH3 commander. I understand that, so I am trying to help GW get a Ship model up. No what I gotta ask is this and please do not be offended by the questions, What are you proposing (in English please)? Are you not just suggesting yet another wild method that to some extent will only be similar to what CB discovered which is, the game is broke, we have to cheat the DD sensors to get variety and challenge? What help do you need? Is your proposal going to add variety, and actually produce a better DD? And on a personal note, will I be able to randomise it without ruining a mathematical absolute formular that leaves little options for those of us whom isn’t so hardcore? More importantly, Is this going to be a NYGM only product or will others be able to participate and benefit from it and have the right to attempt to tone it down on the realism aspect should it seem to detract from its equal share of gameplay. I lay my cards on the table at this point, I have a 100% interest ultimately with a future Chaos file used in conjunction with Sh3 commander. I have diddled with bits of the game so much that I see the only way I will ever get a lasting buzz, is to have a slight "not knowing what to expect feeling but expect the worse" Chaos file will do that for me. I need to be able to choose a sound base mod I need to choose a well balanced ship damage model capable of being randomised up or down according to my realism taste. I need to get a decent air mod, again capable of being randomised to make me think. I need a sub mod that although should not leak as much as a fixed number solution provides (Hollywood), it should also not take the chance away for a exciting battle of repair and pannic. I.e. a randomised sub model. I need a middle ground DD setting that again can be randomised to have lucky/unlucky feel and add a sense that a human may be in the DD. Later as more doors open = more options i.e. a randomised secondary explosion mod. All this is possible but we now have two teams whom do not see eye to eye = I have to wait longer I really think a bit of humble pie on both sides is needed and then at last we can bash ideas of eachother to save hours and hours of testing time which is ultimately forcing players to wait more. If thrown to the community and You and Kpt agree to disagree but decide to share knowledge and possibly modding ideas and inter mod options, I think we will get a really happy community. Is that too impossible to ask?