[CaptBones]

Hiya' RR…on my monitor the SubSim forum background is dark grey…can’t say that I know what to do to solve that problem; I'll try this...

But, on to business…

“i dont know captain bones....i agree on some of your points, and disagree on others. lets just say that the japanese did a pretty good job against the us and australian ships at salvo island they had no radar, but they did have excellent optics, and they got those ships at night..in low visibility with those optics.”

Well, I’m not sure what that has to do with military style reticles in hand-held binoculars. I wasn’t there, but will say without much fear of being wrong, that they weren’t using binoculars for gun fire control or launching of torpedoes in that engagement. The devices involved were essentially the same in both the IJN and USN; stabilized optical range finders. The big difference was that the Japanese believed in, trained for and practiced night surface engagements, the USN did not.

"or for obtaining range to a target vessel"…“naw man, not true, if you know target length, you get target range, lengths can be recorded in the rec manual.”

You’re missing the point. At the distances involved when initially sighting a ship, the target length is too small to accurately measure using the mil graduations on a pair of hand-held binoculars. Besides that, even when the range has been reduced, unless the target is broadside-on (AoB 90), you can’t accurately ‘guestimate’ the apparent length of the vessel as measured by the reticle marks, regardless of what’s in the Rec Manual. That’s why ranges are best determined by a stadimeter, using the masthead height above the water. A vertical reticle on hand-held binoculars can be used for that. But again, the distances involved in war at sea are generally too great and the movement of the ship (you’re not on a stationary platform) precludes using hand-held binoculars for that purpose. It just doesn’t work…been there, done that.

"spotting the fall of shot"…“again wrong, if you know or estimate the ot factor, you can adjust rounds on target, land or sea.”

Have you ever tried to do that? I have…it is impossible with hand-held binoculars aboard a ship. It’s back to that “distance” thing. In ship-to-ship gun combat, you may be firing at ranges of 8, 10, 12 miles or so (16000-24000 yards) and you may get down to 4-6 miles (8000-12000 yards) before the engagement ends…not one or two thousand yards. Same-same for a direct fire shore bombardment mission; 6000-8000 yards or more. You can’t use a hand-held pair of binoculars for that…you frequently can’t even clearly see where the fall of shot is relative to the target at maximum range. You use the ship’s gun director(s) with installed optical range finders.

“what do you think were in the gun directors of navy ships before radar? answer = optics and scales”

Better answer = large optical range finders (baseline length between left and right objective lenses of ten – twenty feet. Definitely not a pair of hand-held binoculars. I’ve been in the gun director, directing fire, on Destroyers, Destroyer Escorts and Frigates. Also had the pleasure of observing a “firepower demonstration” during a RIMPAC surface gun exercise from the #2 turret of USS New Jersey (BB 62).

"At that distance binocular reticles are nothing but an annoyance, a distraction"…“corrected to say useless at that range, but so is the periscope at that range.”

Yes, but you’re missing the point. Lookouts on a surfaced submarine don’t need reticles in their binoculars. Even when making a surface attack, hand-held binoculars are not the best means for determining range…they used SJ radar and the TDC.

“this is from clear the bridge, by richard o'kane”

“Outer doors open. Ten degrees to go. Range seven fifty, speed nine, TDC angle seventy-three.” Fraz was making doubly sure; it checked with what I observed. “Constant bearing—mark!” She was coming on fast. “Set!” Her stack was already in the field, coming on the luminous wire. “Fire!” O'Kane, Richard. Clear the Bridge!: The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang (Kindle Locations 4182-4185). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.”…“Range seven fifty, that was how far away the target was to tang in this attack, thats 750 yards and closing, nothing more needs to be said about that, except that that attack was on the surface.”

Yes…but again what does that have to do with reticles in hand held binoculars? He was getting his target range data from the SJ radar and the TDC, checked against each other and the plot on the DRT. The “luminous wire” was a vertical reticle in his 7X50 binoculars held in the TBT. He wasn’t using it to determine range, he was firing on the fixed relative bearing indicated by the wire and being transmitted to the TDC by the TBT. He discusses that in Chapters 1 and 7 (pages 26 and 92 in my 1st edition, 1st printing copy; he autographed it while we were talking about Submarine School tactical training "deficiencies").

My point is still this: field glasses are good for use in the field; having/putting military-style reticles in nautical binoculars to be used aboard submarines is pointless (either in real life or in the SH games).