[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

They are being offered the oportunity to become part of family of democracies, its all about peace and properity over nationalism and war. The EU has allready taken and is taking in every ex soviet satellite or colony, if it was only about money it wouldnt have happened.

Firstly, you have to distinguish between the Baltic states and the others. The Baltic states, fortunately, have a different history and are much better prepared for it.

Otherwise, the "family of democracies" sounds excellent. Except, as it is to most Russians, it's all empty words. As is "war", "prosperity", and the rest. This is not what this is about for most people. The average Ukranian wants a job. A good-paying job, at that. If the EU can't give him a job, what's democracy to this poor guy? And there's plenty of people without a job in the EU.

There are also other neighbour states that Russia has threatened or pressured, but what have these two did against Russia ? What do you ment by saying they are sticks pointed against Russia?

This is purely political. Much the same extends to the other states.

The fact is that Russia, while it exists, is going to be a big and ambitious state, and in the current circumstances it's again shaping up to be a significant economic power - and with economic power come other types of power.

Naturally, the West is eager to do what they can to put barriers to Russian power in the region. Now put yourself in Russia's position and ask "Why should I like this?". There's no reason, in fact.

You say Russia has ambitions, what kind? Territorial? Wonder how its Wests fault if these countries flock for cover..

No, territorial ambitions in the modern world come last. Economic ambitions are first, and Russia clearly wants room to manuever. A Ukraine and Georgia that DON'T ask for gas at prices of several times below market value would be a start for what Russia wants. Political ambitions come second. At the most extreme edge, Russia would be happy to be surrounded by states ruled by a bunch of Lukashenko clones. I'm not saying that's nice, but I am saying that's a satisfactory solution for Russia.

And so? The EU and the US ambitions are also economic and political in nature. And, quite rightly, they're seen as hostile to Russia by virtue of denying her ambitions in the same way as Russia denies the West's (in that region at least; and to Russia, you have to acknowledge that the region is more vital than to the other side). It's all a chess game, as Skybird said.

As for territorial ambitions, ask who eastern Ukraine voted for, and what his stance on Russia is, and you might be surprised. For all real purposes, eastern Ukraine - instead of being wonderfully raised to democratic prosperity - has been completely sidelined.

Bottom line: there are bigger and more real forces at play here than Western ideology of a "prosperous family of democratic states". Spare me the stock phraseology, and tell me how an unemployed guy in Kiev is supposed to feed his family on democracy. Because the EU or the US isn't going to pay for it.