[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

As I've said earlier I'm not against taking refugees in. I just want them to go back once Syria is at peace again.

That's fair enough, although to be honest what would become of those who fled Assad? Sticky situation.

In case of the Jews it's pretty easy. They by definition can't be part of the Nazi ranks so there should be very little danger to import that ideology with them. The problem is we're not talking immigration of Jews but immigration of millions of "average" Germans who might or might not be in with the Nazis and don't reject Nazism per se but just the ultra radical version. "Moderate" Nazism is ok to them.

By definition maybe, but that didn't stop some of them from being so. Stella Kubler for example. What would stop Nazis sending agents posing as Jews?

Funny just two months ago the central counsel of the Jews in Germany stated their fear of a massive rise of antisemitism because of the many Muslim immigrants....
http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/de/ar...der-juden.html

Aye, sadly there is that problem, lots of fear around at the moment.

How do you work through them carefully? A lot of them have no papers and we know now that Daesh has most likely an official Syrian passport printer.

That's a tricky question and a lengthy process that would have to involve intelligence agencies and the like. Now that Daesh have a Syrian passport printer that's going to fubar things up somewhat. However, we already have a process which is used to weed out the real asylum seekers from the economic migrants, and the useful economic migrants from the useless ones.
Let's face it, if you were forced to flee Germany, as perhaps you think that one day you will, you would hope that another country would take you in and let you live there without intimidation or the continuation of the fear of persecution that you faced in Germany.

Rehoming them in the EU is a dream that won't come true as most member states don't give a sheet and leave it all to Germany and Sweden. So there goes the rational approach right there.

Aye, you're telling me. Stupid selfish idiots the lot of them.
Believe me, if it was down to me it would be a case of "If you want EU membership and all the benefits that go with it, then you have to take the downsides that come with it too." But many nations just want the good stuff and shirk the bad.

If they have a passport send them back to their home country. If they have "lost" their papers make the person chose a country. If he refuses to pick one just send them to the Sahara. That will make them remember where they came from. Yes, that's quite nasty (and perhaps not that realistic) but it's the only way to not be played for fools by people who throw away their papers to prevent deportation.
Take fingerprints from all immigrants and filter those out that have already been deported once.

Fingerprints is a good idea, deporting to the Sahara is perhaps a bit over the top but I can see your point. Might not be a bad idea to take DNA samples too.
Of course, this only works on the legal routes, and if someone has been legally deported then they won't come back on the legal route.

There's also the problems of those who have become state-less. I read a while ago about a man from...I think it was Iraq, who came to the UK seeking asylum, he was denied and sent back to Iraq but when he arrived at Iraq he was denied entry and was sent back to the UK where he's been in an detainee center ever since as his application for asylum is reassessed.
This happens a lot, the UNHCR has estimated there are around 10-11 million stateless people in the world, and you can be sure that a good number of the migrants who have come to Germany are in that 10-11 million category.
So where doe someone who has no country go when no country wants him or her?

Again, Trump is an idiot. (well, so am I, but that's a different story....)

Mate, we're all idiots, just in varying ways.

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's because I'm from a country that lived under Nazi oppression that I'm so vehemently against totalitarian ideologies. But what would have happened if no one had stopped the Nazis? What if people had decided to just let them do their thing and not to take an anti Nazi position? I think the world wouldn't look the same today and it would be ugly looking.

That's a fair point, and I can see where you're coming from. To be honest, if Hitler had not invaded Poland, and if Stalin had not come knocking then Nazi Germany probably would have continued until it inevitably collapsed under its own chaotic energies. Look at the Soviet Union, no-one stopped them, and Communist China, no-one stopped them either.

Define extremism please. I'm not talking about killing. I'm not talking about mass imprisonment just for being Muslim. I'm not saying to tear down all mosques. All I say is that Islam should not become stronger here and prevent it from doing so by the means I've pointed out above.

I define extremism as the targetted discrimination of people in a radical manner, be it by killing, expulsion, or detention. The thing is, you can't say that you're targetting Islam without saying that you're targetting Muslims, all Muslims. It would be like saying that you say that Christianity is a radical religion but not all Christians are radical. The truth is that it's the other way around, it doesn't so much boil down to the writing, because if it did then every single Muslim would be walking into their nearest public place with some explosives and a machine gun, what it boils down to is the individual person, and their interpretation of the writing. Not every Christian is a vehement anti-homosexual, and anti-abortion preacher, and let's face it, most people who state that they are a member of a set religion follow not even half of that religions stated guidelines or laws, do they? Everyone has their own definition of what it is all about, and some of those definitions are violent and dangerous, no doubt about it.
So how can two people look at the same book and behave completely differently? They're both Muslims, although both may claim that the other isn't a proper Muslim, and if you take the stand that Islam is evil, then that means that since they are both self-confessed followers of Islam then they are both by definition evil. It's far too wide a blanket to cast.

So what do you propose? Let massive numbers of Muslims into your country and hope for the best? Hope that they will magically integrate much better than the other three million did 50 years earlier?

Well, has Germany become a Sultanate over the past 50 years?

What if they keep their tradition of having many children?

Generally speaking that tends to decline over time. We had a similar problem with people imigrating from Africa, but that reduced once they had access to better healthcare and contraception.
"But Oberon," I hear you cry "that still means that they're going to have a higher birth rate than us!"
Yes, this is true, it is estimated by 2030 Muslims in France and Belgium will make up over ten percent of the population...

Wait a minute...ten percent?

Is that all?

Yup, at the moment conversion rates in France have doubled since the 1980s with 100,000 French National Muslim converts living in France...out of a total population of 66 million.

What about Germany?

Germany has a population of over 81 million, and I believe about 11.9% of that population are migrants, although obviously that will rise by at least five to ten percent over the coming years because of the Syrian crisis. That makes Germany the third highest in terms of immigration rate, behind Russia and the United States, and just in front of, ironically enough, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

Anyway, back to Muslims, and according to wikipedia, somewhere between 1.9 and 5.4% of the population of Germany are Muslims, somewhere in the region of 4.3 million.

So 4.3 million people are scaring a country of 81 million.

What will you tell your great grandchildren when they have become a minority in their own country? "Well, we saw it coming but it was political incorrect to address or even do something about it, so please wear your headscarf at all times"?
Yes that is still far in the future but as it is it's just a question of when, not if.

I think it would probably be my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren who would become a minority, and by that time we probably would have nuked ourselves into an early grave, immigrated to another planet or uploaded our collective consciousness into an electronic mainframe I would hope.
Besides, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great(x20000) grandfather would be mortified to see me typing a collective-bastardisation of European languages into this screen, not to mention a liberal smattering of Arabic and Hindu thrown into the mix.
He would probably be pretty angry that the nation I lived in worshiped the Christian God too instead of the Pagan Gods of old, and I wouldn't even begin to get him started on our culture.
He would probably be confused why we made such a big fuss about child pornography and pedophilia too.

In other words, don't buy into the alarmist propaganda that Islam is going to overthrow us in a generation or two, because, to be honest, it's very unlikely to happen, and even if it did, it would only be the continuation of a process that is as old as civilization itself, and our descendents eventually wouldn't even know the difference.