[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

It's an uncited reference which is quoting a NYT article that quotes an anonymous source. IOW biased propaganda until we have actual evidence of an actual connection to a Christian or anti-abortion group. The guy is a babbling madman. Who knows how he was manipulated into saying anything and whether he even actually understands what he said. A far cry btw from Farouk and wife coldly planning and plotting for years to commit their crimes.

This is a fair point, although there are no doubt others who are not Muslim who coldly plotted and planned for years to commit a mass-murder.

Well maybe and maybe not. Hate certainly does not require religion to exist.

This is true.

Religion might provide a handy excuse to stigmatize but there are plenty of other secular reasons to do so to just about any practice or group if one wants, and they do because it's human nature to subdivide and classify people into groups, tribes, cliques, teams, nations, whatever.

Yup, religion is a handy excuse to stigmatize, be it Christian, Muslim, Jew or Hindu. All religions have their nutjobs, all religions have their murderers.

Take one hate method away i'm sure people would find others to fill the void.

Exactly, it's that part of human nature to subdivide and classify people that is the true root cause of this war, heck, you could say that it's the root cause of many wars, and of many murders and other crimes. The fear of something that isn't like me. Be it a Muslim, a Communist, or a Homosexual, to pick just three examples. But when someone from one of these groups commits an abherrant action, should all other members of that group, no matter how many they number, nor how they have lived their lives, apologise for that persons actions?
If someone from Subsim went on a killing spree at a mosque tomorrow, would Neal have to apologise for that persons actions? Would all of us in GT have to apologise? Would every single member of Subsim have to come into GT and say that they don't support the action of that individual?

I don't know, perhaps from the mass media coverage of those undercover videos where the PP exec basically admits to it? But more realistically maybe it's because it's common knowledge that they are murdering (or at least killing) unborn babies and they are harvesting their body parts.

The key problem in this subject, is the viewpoint of when one considers a foetus to have sentience. Until someone proves that one way or the other it's going to be a key problem in this debate.

Do they not perform abortions? Do they not sell body parts and stem cells? Good or bad intentions and profit margins aside that is exactly what they do.

Absolutely.

But don't get me wrong Bud, i'm all for abortion. As I have said many times we have far too many people on this planet already and the last thing we need is more unwanted children in it, especially those born to parents unable or unwilling to make the personal, social and financial commitments to raising them properly so they don't turn into barbarians. We got too many of those too. I just don't believe in white washing what Planned "Parenthood" is really doing here, and more importantly to a good number of anti-abortion people what they do with tax payer funds.

The problem is, is that it's become such a heated subject in the US (and indeed in Europe too, but not to the same extremes) that you get people taking violent actions against abortion clinics and the people who are employed by them and who use them. These violent acts run up to and including murder. Deals is just one in a line of people who have attacked abortion clinics, be they operating under the name of 'Planned Parenthood' or otherwise, and let's not forget that they don't just do abortions, they also provide forms of contraception and so forth. In an ideal world, contraception would be all that would be needed and the rest would be down to common sense and decency.
Of course, it's not a perfect world, and so clinics like 'Planned Parenthood' are needed, and it has, as you've pointed out, an additional side-benefit of helping to keep a more realistic population sustainability level without having to resort to something drastic like the Chinese did.
Ultimately, I believe that it should be put in federal law that a persons body is their own, to do with as they please, and while a foetus is inside that body, it's under the juristiction of the person whose body it is co-existing with. If that person decides that it no longer wants the foetus inside it, then that's the choice of that person.
Heck, I've seen children from the foster care system, and while foster parents do a fantastic job, it's no life for a kid, and like you say, if a couple do not have the means to have a child, nor the wish to care for one, then that child would be better off not coming out.

Ok...major veering off topic really, but I think really that something like abortion and even the harvesting of body parts and stem cells (with the former parents permission) should be something that is a part of the healthcare profession. Although it does run a bit in the face of the Hippocratic Oath, it is in the long term a beneficial option, especially in the cases where the mothers life is in danger through continued pregnancy, and when it comes to body parts and stem cells, they are very useful items for the medical system to have access to and could well benefit another persons life. From death comes life, as they say.
In Wales recently they changed the organ donor laws, so that rather than opt-in, you now have to opt-out, meaning that everyone will be treated as an organ donor unless they have something to state that they're not.
I think that's a fantastic idea, I would be an organ donor myself but I'm not sure how the tablets I'm on effects the organs...I should probably talk to my doctor and opt into the scheme once the current situation is over.

I understand people who have objections to abortion and to organ donation and stem cells. I wasn't raised a Christian, but I had an illustrated Bible and I went to a Church of England school, so I know the basics and I understand how people could view such things. But, I don't understand other people, who say that they are 'God fearing Christians' who use intimidation and violence, and even murder to try to stop other people using the free will that God gave them. To me those people seem as Christian as followers of Daesh must seem to Muslims. Yeah, I can understand the technical reason why they're doing something, but I really can't understand why they are doing something.

Still...I guess I've always been a dreamer.