Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens
Well, to be honest I only have time to skim your longer posts. I don't usually read really large posts by anyone, don't have time.
Ok, that's pretty much what you have been saying for months. I will salute you for being thorough, you back up your opinions with research. I get it. I disagree, I think you are wrong, and I have previously voiced my reasons why, but you are entitled to your opinion. Just be mindful of others who post here.
Ok, dokey, I read you loud and clear. 
As I've said to Sky, both the Jewish and Christian religions have there homicidal teachings--most Jews and Christian ignore them. Only small sects of Christians take the part about handling snakes seriously. I think it's pretty clear that millions of good Muslims ignore the crazy parts of the Koran as well. It's the fringe that take the bad parts and act on them. Anyway, that's MY opinion.  |
Neal,
okay, forget priests and dogmas, forget historic examples and the course of history, forget sectarian diversity, ignore the debate whether the church really holds up the teachings of the so-called Christ, forget all and everything, ignore it all for a moment.
What lies at the very bottom, at the most profound basis, is this, Neal, and it really cannot be put in any more essential format, I think:
Take the teachings of the Christ, and show me where he called for the violant submission of others, where he asked his followers for assassinating critics of his, where he taught the blind obedience to a cult or to himself, where he taught that the church shoud be founded and its representatives should be obeyed, show me where he taught that martyrdom in the killing of infidels is a virtue, and where he mocked his followers if they were not willing to sacrifice themselves, show me were he ordered for wears of attack and genocide of opposing tribes and different cults.
I do not talk about archaic Judaism and pre-Christian times, I do not talk about church dogmata and churchian powerpolitics - I only refer to the person of Jesus nicknamed the Christ himself. That is the one and only Christ that served as a name-giver for the term: "Christianity" (we do not call it "Biblianism" or "Churchianism" for no reason, don'T we).
You will not find such references in Christ's teachings.
Now take the teachings of another great visionary, who maybe (some say even probably) served as a mentor and teacher, as an example for Jesus: this Indian prince named Siddharta, nicknamed "Buddha the enlightened". Scan the Buddhist canon and find passages where this Indian guru - he himself - called for any of the points I listed above.
You will not find them in the Buddhist canon either - instead you will find what I call until today the most complete intellectual model of the human mind I have ever seen described in psychological literature.
On the other hand, for every single point I listed above - and more could be listed, easily! - I can look up for you the according reference in the Quran: that is the one and only Quran that is so to speak the glad tidings in islamic interpretation, the words all coming from Muhammad himself, having been collected from his mouth when Allah spoke through him. I can show you all the above mentioned points being legitimised by Muhammad.
What does this tell you about comparing Jesus and Siddharta onj the one hand, and Muhammad on the other hand? QAnd what are your conclusions regarding the teachings those three elft behind, and the kind of effect they wanted to motivate people for?
Could it be illustrated any more obvious, any easier?
I honestly do not know how.
Anything else - is just consequences from these elemental differences between the three. And like churchian dogma all too often showed and still shows to be a perverting of Christ's teachings for opportunistic political reasons of the clerus, "moderate" views in islam are a perverting of Muhammad's teachings. The perveting thing in the Christian religion works for the bad of it, for it leads to intolerance, suppression and violence and fear . The perverting thing in the Muhammedan religion works for the better of it, for it leads to leaving behind intolerance, suppression, violence, racism and hate.
The socalled moderate Muslim is not humanist and liberal due to the Quranic teaching - but
despite the the Quranic teaching. That shows the force of goodness and the influence it nevertheless can have in humans. And that is th ebhgitter truth that Muslims worldwide must learn to face. It is a bitter pill, but there is no shortcut to it, and no escape. They must look that bitter truth in its face and understand what this means in conclusions about the cult they insist to be called members of.
A big, bitter, painful pill that is - I would not like needing to swallow it. But as the saying goes: bitter medicine is medicine that helps.