[Skybird]

Originally Posted by u crank

You just edited my quote to change the meaning. That's a good debating tactic. What I said quite plainly was that religious freedom is part of the package that includes freedom of speech and opinion. What I said.



Don't put words in my mouth.



Why don't you stop using these vague stories and say exactly what you mean? Are you afraid I won't understand it or are you afraid to say it?



Skybird if you can give one single example of where I have done anything like this please feel free to post it. If you can't you should stop saying it. You are obviously speaking in generalities but you are directing it at me as if I am doing this. I consider that a cheap shot.



That's all we need.

Lalala.

U_crank, you started over religion having the right to do what it wants for reasons of freedom of religious practice. You implied by that that the freedom of religion is of higher meaning than the freedom of others not needing to be bothered, touched, effected by it. You denied that freedom of religion also must mean freedom from religion - for those not wishing to have anything to do with it. This says something about you and religious people sharing this sense of bigotry, and that is what I call it for sure: bigotry, double-standards, privileged 1st class freedoms for religion, and second class freedom for those not sharing religion, but being expected to fall back so that religion can freely practice as it wants. And religious ALWAYS wants more and more.

I have nothing more to tell you. I think I made my arguments clear enough, here, and in other threads. Your religion has to stop where you start to expand your freedom at the cost of mine and that of others.

In Germany, the Friday before Eastern has a law that forbids people dancing and listening to9 music ion restaurants, discos, even if thes eplaces wopuld make sure that outside it cannot be heared or seen, not to bother those people who for religious reasons want all world becoming silent like a grave and no joy being enjoyed by anyone. Tell me why the of people over here are banned from living their lives as they want if they do not interfere with people'S doing inside private homes or inside their temples. Tell me why all people are submitted to obeying a religious demand that THE MAJORITY and especially the younger ones do not share in belief, with the huge majority being critical of the churches and not literally believing in the miracle tales of the bible anyway. It is state-enforced legalised religious discrimination. The right way would be: discos make sure their music and fun is not so loud that it interferes with what goes on in churches and private homes, and churches make sure that their demands are mandatory only for those joining the mass and sharing the belief.

But no, that is not good enough. ALL must be forced to give ground to more freedom for religion, and less for private persons. Religion must be pushed. It demands special recognition. Special status. Exceptions from the state's laws. Privileges. It demonised those opposing it and attacks and offends them. And when the attacked defend themselves and defend their freedom and strike back, then sudeenly religion starts preaching "respect!" and "watch your mouth!" Heck, the new pope on his first appearance after being voted into office demonised all people not sharing the theistic believe in a deity as godless people who pray to Satan. Where is the respect, the humane tolerance, the peacefulness there? The Catholic and Protestant churches assist their worse and most intolerant enemy, Islam, because for the only reason that Muslims also believe in a single deity. Chgristians get killed by the many thosuands every years by Muslim progroms and mass killings around the world. They remain silent about that. They compliment the ideology motivating this barbary as "respectable" and sharing "the same belief in the one creator". Why they do it? Becasue even a hotile theist believer is better to them than somebody not allowing them to isse control mover their kinds and freedom. a killing Islam is better than a peaceful atheism. Andf finally: the church would authorize the same crimes if it still would be in power like it was in the medieval. Our freedoms and morals today have not been formed because of the churches, but in bitter fights and painful conflicts against the bitter resistance of the church. History shows us why it is a bad idea to let religion come back to those powers again. It would lead us back into hate, intolerance and inhumanity.

Religion is not and never was about freedom and equality. Religion is about total control, and expansion, and subjugation. It is about poisoning the minds of already the weakest and most defenseless: our children, to get their thinking under control from earliest age on: brainwashing. Instead of letting people chose, it wants them to submit. Instead of freedom, it wants conformity.

Always was. Is now. Always will be. Heck, it's religion.