[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

If we dig down to the bare bones we find that money is nothing more than a fantasy construct. Is there anything of value that actually backs it anymore? The answer is no. It's just Fiat money. Figures stored in a computer. The digits that are removed from your pay go for only one thing... paying the interest on the money that the government borrows to pay its' bills and run its' programs. Basically it's a big Ponzi scheme with an artificial deficit thrown in to create talking points for politicians to create fear among the populace.
Eventually it will collapse on itself.

I mostly agree so far.

My suggestion would be... give the poor their welfare fiat but not with a noose attached to it.

A drug test is hardly a noose. Drugs themselves often turn into one, however.

If the poor are poor because they chose substance abuse, they need more than the pittance doled out by their state welfare office.

No, if the poor are poor because they choose substance abuse, they don't need ANYTHING from the state welfare office. They need to either get clean and get their life together, or at least free up welfare resources to those who do not CHOOSE to live in continual poverty. In other words - if they choose drugs - they don't need welfare.

Requiring a drug test to get aid smacks of tyranny where you are considered guilty until you prove your innocence and that isn't right by any stretch of the imagination.

Again - as I pointed out to Mookie - welfare is a CHOICE - so if they choose to "get aid" - they are consenting to a drug test.

This will lead to further erosion of peoples' rights to self determination.

Look - let's say your running low on food. You ask me for help, so I bring over some cans of green beans and some boxes of mac and cheese. You turn it down because you wanted streak. In fact, you sue me for not doing it "your way". Well sorry ole boy, you ask for help, you take it the way its offered, not how you want it. Nobody MADE you ask for help - so you either want it or you don't. There is a difference between self determination and telling others they have to support you while you go do drugs.

The real abusers of these programs don't spend that money on drugs to sell or imbibe. They do blatantly stupid things like a couple I saw in Michigan doing their grocery shopping in a convenience store. Loaded a cart, paid for it with food stamps and went to the parking lot and loaded everything into a new Cadillac. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Over

So someone on welfare should not be allowed to own a caddy, but they should be allowed to go smoke some crack or do some meth..... Sorry - that logic just does NOT fly....

As for the corporate welfare queens, sure they do something constructive with the money... like paying their stock holders huge dividends and paying their CEO's huge salaries and bonuses.

Yes, none of that money actually goes into stuff like developing new technology or paying salaries to regular people, huh? Yes, the rich make money - and they do so RISKING their money. But that money they risk - employs people - who when successful create a profit that partially gets returned to the investor.

Is that where you want your money going?

Employing people... yes I do want my money going there.

To make the rich a little richer?

Or poorer? Like those who invested in things like Wesabe or Petite Palate, or a company I worked for - Living.com which sold furniture online. But you don't have a problem with the rich loosing money do you? They probably deserve to do so, right? Only thing is - when they did - I did too - because I lost my job when the company went bankrupt. You want to pretend that the "rich get richer" in a vacuum - and they don't.

If Welfare is such a thorn in the side, just do away with it altogether. Grind the poor into the mud or make them slaves by tossing them into the workhouse again. I certainly hope that you never find yourself a down on your luck victim of a financial catastrophe.

I have been there. I was forced into a situation where I knew I couldn't keep my head up. I had to ask for help from a local charity so that I could feed my two kids. The good Lord blessed me and gave me an IT contract that same week - and though I was offered the help, I was able to then say "no thank you". The help went to someone else, whom I hope truly needed them. Reforms such as drug testing - only helps to make sure that welfare resources go to those who truly need them - not those who want to eat off welfare (or trade their welfare "funds") so they can buy drugs.

Welfare (of all types) is a thorn. Ultimately, its not right that government takes from one person via compulsory taxation just to give it to someone else via welfare. The thing is - when the thorn is abused, it makes it a much larger thorn.