[Hatch]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Yes, it is your mistake, coming in as a newbie to a mod forum filled with dedicated modders to post your view that, to put it bluntly, Mods SUXORS (to use crap Internet vernacular). At the very least you could put it in the Users forum (the main one), since that's where the guys who don't with mods might reside. Anyone here plays with mods almost by definition and loves it.

My answers would be specific to DW mods:

The "division of labor", so to speak, is clearly delineated in DW. Modders can change the text files (doctrines and databases) as well as 3D models, but not the main program and its DLLs (at least they can't distribute it - no one can stop them from changing their own copy). That greatly reduces the chance of a trojan being transmitted. We can't even change enough in the program to change the Weapon Loadout interface's titles. I think you have little to worry about from trojans or even Easter Eggs from the DW mod community.

A modder is generally closer to the applied side of the game than the developer. This allows them to clearly see some things the developer doesn't. For instance, Sonalysts knew the cable for a dipping sonar is hundreds of meters long. Yet for some reason they decided it was better for gameplay to limit it to IIRC 400 feet (I'm not exactly a helo player; having toyed with everything but the helo...). That move did nothng good for either realism or gameplay - now it won't go through many deeper layers, to say the least. Let's just say a modder fixed that.

Same with the VLAD buoys - by increasing their depth, we have something that will go through the deeper layers, as well as providing a real reason to use both DIFARs and them.

There are also times when a quick check would identify mysterious errors. I was pretty stunned when I walked into the DB one day and realized that almost every Russian SSM, even the Sunburns and Switchblades used doctrines made for nonseaskimmers, which made the missiles fly way too high = vulnerable to shootdowns. Let's just say I had to go change that. If this is some kind of realism error, it should be changed, no? If this is some kind of gameplay, well, I'm not sure how this is going to improve gameplay, but gamers can better decide whether they like "gameplay" or realism.

Some people actually apparently saw real Akulas and/or their diagrams and came to the conclusion that the stock 3D model doesn't come close to it. Are you telling me their eyes are fooling them?

Sure, for all of this maybe if we beg Sonalysts it may eventually all get changed. But why? They can, as OKO noted, use that time developing the main program - improved sonar models or actually detecting masts that stuck above water, or improved handling of objects travelling at >55 knots, or new interfaces, better ballast controls - all things we CAN'T control. Few of us can do that stuff in the first place and it is now blatantly clear no one can change that stuff legally. Might as well do the stuff we can ourselves and let SCS do the stuff we can't.

There are also other considerations in MP than reliability or even the quality of package.

Suppose we have a mod package that everyone in the know agrees is decisively superior in all respects to the original. Even then, many people won't mod. There will always be the Suspicious, like you. And there will be even more Ignorants who never go to a BBS to find out what mods are available.

To put it on a reduced scale, I use LW's mod and go on to make a few refinements here and there. But when I go MP, I'd have to revert to LW's mod, or even the Stock.

The MP community faces the same dilemma. Everyone has the stock version stashed away somewhere. Not everybody has the modded version. This is where what one may call a quality vs quantity dilemma comes in. Does a community want to force its players to mod for a superior gaming experience?

Or do they just want more, on the theory that more players = more good players and good players are more important than realism improvements (after all, DW is a long way up in realism from 688 Fast-Attack, but many people played that too).

Mr. Kazuaki, thank you for that eloquent description of what is you do to the game. Yet it served to validate one of my points, and that is one of acceptance by the general public, as you patently put it, you have to revert to the stock game for MP playing, there is no unison in version usage, MOD or not MOD, further, you also validated one other concept I put forward, and that was the tinkering with the program for your own personal use, the only consensus as you put it was the patched developer stock game, which clearly outlines the plateau where all gamers can meet in a leveled arena of playing. Which is one of the points I described on my initial assessment?

As for the suggestion of SCS not having enough time to tweak the realism models, I think it’s a weak argument; it certainly does make a convenient one to validate the Modders existence.

A picture is emerging here my friend, and that is; if the tweaks you have made to the realism model are as good as you describe, certainly as obvious as you describe, and if there is a consensus of players regarding those changes, the problem here is one of distribution and acceptance by the general public, what you have here is a situation of non endorsement by the manufacturer to convince skeptics such as me, and thousands of others, that the changes do warrant their implementation to further better gaming, I for one would be delighted to try another patch or fix, provided the developer avails itself to approve that work.

I’m assuming that Sonalysts is unwilling to underwrite your work for whatever reason, be it secret (Which I think its ridiculous) to one of man hours spent reviewing your work, and do you know why they do not avail themselves to underwrite any MOD? It isn’t because it’s a top secret changes you made to a game, its one of credibility and corporate image, to put it simply, this is what people would say “Oh SCS, them guys are selling a buggy, unfinished game, and a bunch of hackers, amateurs, tinkerers and Modders had to finish it for them with their approval, and those guys didn’t get a dime for finishing that product, so SCS made out like a bandit, yet we are paying full retail price” all of this yields a dilemma of credibility for all you hard working modders, and thus here we are, without a general agreement on which version of the game to use, except of course, those of us who use the original developer patched versions, you are facing not having the real recognition and endorsement for the work you have done.

So you see, as good as your work maybe (I can’t say anything either way having never tried a MOD) you don’t have the acceptance of the general public, and my friend that spells a doomed product, if you did the changes for yourself great, you can go look in the mirror and blow kisses at yourself and say you are a happening guy, if it isn’t adopted by the general public (And I mean a lot of gamers not just your friends) as I described it, it will fade into obscurity in the long run.