[Skybird]

Originally Posted by hixz21

I think it's wrong if you to judge Islam from Islam country in this era. Don't you know when Muhammad was still the leader of Islam in Mecca, there were still Jews and Chistians in Mecca? He protected them. Even they weren't muslim.

First, the early Mekkanese period is seen as the introductory phase of Muhammad's life, anbd since he was still installing himself, he indeed was still not that bloody basterd that he later turned into, but a mixture of a desert bandit (he had attacked other caravans for prey and slaughtered their people), a caravan leader, and a traveller coming into contact with the many cults that existed on the Arab peninsula at that time. The sopcial network safeguarding the old and the weak, based on tribal rites and habiuts was about collpasiong at that time, since the rich trader caste, the Quraysh, had come to so much wealkth that they eroded that system for their own profit. That also turned Muhammad into a social critic and maybe an initial revolutionary. His often assumed epilepsia helped him in getting seen as a seer as well. After he fell out of friendship with the elites in Mekka whose profits got threatened by this troublemaker that wanted to get rid of him and his social-revolutionary "movement", they fled to Medina, where he bribed Medinese people into letting him in.

At Medina there lived three Jewish tribes whose pharisees in debate and dispute showed him how little hhis knoweldge about Jewish relgion was. He had lectured himself about Judaism (Islam did not exist, mind you) for around ten years, and thought he were an equal to them and could debate them on same eye level. He couldn'T, and the ylet him fgelt that. His narcissistic reaction - offended as this isolated, megalomainac orphant's ego felt - was to start a war of attack against these tribes, defeating two and driving them away, making a peace with the third and then struck that one again months later by surprise. All boys and males were executed on the central market place, all women were led into working slavery, all young women and girls led into sexual slavery. The Jewish culture in that palce had seized to exist. Genocide we call that today. The massacre was about around 800-900 male prisoners, and until today archeologic research in certain areas of the Medina area are forbidden by death penalty so that evidence for this mass killing should never be produced.

He only fought people who went war against Islam. And they didn't kill civilians. What muslim did in that era was a true muslim. Try to read books whose writers are really know Islam from the inside and outside.

As a matter of fact I am basing on the input of over 30 academic books about Islam'S ideology, Quran, and history, which costed me several years, and I have spend almost one and a half year in the ME, namely Iran and Turkey, but also Algeria, Egypt, and short stops in some others. It is good advise if you want objective information about an ideology that you do not ask a propagator of said ideology, since he has the agenda to defend it and let it shine nice and bright. If I want an answer to the question on the church's role in Eorpean culture, the last adress I would ask is the Vatican. If I want information about Islam, unbiased, objective, academically researched infoirmation, the last guy I ask is an imam or a sympathiser.

Muhammad fought almost 70 wars and predatory raids during the last 25 years of his life. He soon learned that religious claims about himself allowed him to silence critics and intimidate them by making any objections to his demands equal to HERESY and an offence of God in whose place he claimed to speak. When two secretaries (he could not write or read) who fixed in writing his speeches, learned that suggestions they made themselves how he could say something in a better way he later claimed to be not theirs but God's words, they were in danger for their lives and had to flee, sine they knew too much about his secrets.

The life of Islam in that era.

And mainstream Islam has not changed the ideology since then a bit, but has prolongued that era up into the present. That'S why it raises troubles whereever it arrives. Islam is nobody'S friend but everybody'S enemy.

And look, Indonesia which Islam are the dominant religion. Are ALL OF THE MUSLIM (I am sorry if the words in caps, I only want to make an assertion) hate the other religions? Hate Chirstians, Buddhism, Hinduism? All of them? No. They don't hate them. They don't offend them. They live in harmony. But still, Indonesia was attacked by terrorists. Said that Indonesian goverment supported the infidels. And the victims of the attack weren't only from foreign country, but Indonesians were also the victims. The muslims were also the victims. And ALL THE INDONESIAN MUSLIM really curse the terrorists. Muhammad didn't teach a suicide attack. Didn't teach to kill brutally. Even if when Islam is on the war, the muslim troops must be stay alive. Must appreciate the soul that has been given to them. If they intend to die by doing suicide, they aren't welcomed in the heaven. They will go to hell. Can you judge who is right? Indonesian Muslim or the terrorist?

Muhammad mocked his followers when once they were fearful and hesitent before a battle and expressed doubt, and he told them that if they loose their lives when attacking enemies of Islam, this would open the gate top paradise and they were only afraid becasue they did not know the rewards awaiting for them - the usual theistic bullsh!t religions tell soldiers before battle. The problem is that for Isalam, everything not Islamic is not a peaceful neighbour with which to coexist, but as part of the house of war is encessarily an enemy. Which concludes in that fighting against anybody not Isdlamic in true understanding is legitimate. And on suicide attacks, he actively defended that and encouraged his men to sacrifice themselves in order to bring greater damage to the enemy and overcome him. A devoute Muslim is forboidden to commit suicide in a ordinary saocial setting, say becasue he bvecame ill or old or ran out of money or was desparte. But suicide in the menaing of suicide attacks were encouraged by Muhammad.

Then, "enemy" and "Muslim". You cannot arbitrarily define being Muslim this or that way. The definition is based on the Quran and the partial contradictions in the Quran'SA suras from the early Mekkanese and the later Medinese period are in consensus solved by Islamic law schools since the 9th century by the abrogation principle, that mans that the later created sura should claim valdity over the older, if there is a contradiction. POrobölem is that the later Medinese period of Muhammad'S life is that when he had become a conqaueror and warlord and when he had set eyes on overthrowing the wholw world. It is the more violent, warmiongerting period of his life that gets authority in deciding what parts of the Quran dominate others. The suras are not given in historical order, but are soplrted by length, except the first. What is trly Muslim is not open to everybody'S individual opinion, the criterions are pretty much clearly given in the Quran. And since true Muslims - the so-called radical once who in fact are not any radical at all but just true - are obliged to subjugate infidels, and since untrue Muslims are not untgrue but no Muslims at all, it is justified, in this peridfe logic, that Musalims kill "Muslims". It even is justified to kill true Muslims if that sacrifice helps to inflict a greater damage onto the enemy. The greater cause - jihad agaiunst the house of war - justifies about everything.

I said it earlier, and I say it again, it is indeed so that many "Muslims" would not raise their hands against the infidel, but on a higher nation-wide level I see this majorty still not standing up against the true Muslims, but silently letting them do, and even more: their kindness and ethics that may hinder them to do evil is not necessarily becasue of Islamic teahcing but DESPITE Muslim teaching. The Quran is clear: fair treatement only of Muslims, dicrimination of th epeople of the book (Jews Christians) to let them feel their inferiorty and the penalty by Allah whom they refuse to follow, and deathj for all others. Regular murders of Christians and Jews, even priests, bigger progroms and civil war-like mass killings, repressions, legal inequality and hindering, disc riminatio n and intimidation in countries like Egypt, Nigeria, Somalia and Sudan, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, are the daily rule. But when somebody in the West makes a joke about Muhammad - then all Ummah cries out loud in global hysteria. What is hundreds and trhiosuands of killed Jews and Christians every year compared to a cartoon?!?! and I do not know how often I have been complimented by Muslim natives in various countries for being a German, because I should feel so proud of the acchievement of my people when under Hitler we managed to kill so wonderfully many Jews.

We have learned from our mistakes. We regret them. We developed beyond that. Most Christians (I am none, btw) do not take the bible literal anymore. We do not run progroms against Muslims. But the Muslim mainstream still does so, still does believe in the old scripture, unaltered, unreformed. The Quran still rules, Shariah still rules. Where states limit the one or the other, they indeed have abandoned Islam, and by Qzuranic understanding are legitimate targets of attacks, since they are corrupt already, and on the broink of apostacy, or beyond. Islam still lives by the old desert god'S laws, still is stuck in the past 1 thosuand years ago. Where we have been, what we have left behind - Islam is stil, there. And if we do not challenge it, if we do not cionfront it with utmost determination, then it will never chnage, and will n ever leave the old desert god and his tyrannic, psychpopathic rulership behind.

Man must leave his kindergarten years and childish literal beliefs in the desert god behind. Else man will destroy himself. In the name of the desert god. Which would rate us as truly insane, mentally ill creatures, since we would have annihilated ourselves over nothing but hallucinations.

Now, look for the Oslo bombing. The actor, Anders Behring Breivik. Killing innocent people, his own fellow Norwegian, because letting Islam and Marxism to expand. Claimed that his action was a neccessary action to defend. The point is, what ever the religion is, it depends on the individual. Even if they are Muslim, Christians, Hinduism, Buddhaism, and so on, if they think like extremist, they do like extremist. If they are b*tch (I am sorry), they are b*tch. Religion is just their excuse to do that.

Ideology has a strong motivating effect - especially when it is dressing in religious cloths. That'S why it is lectured. It is a motivational factor. So it is better to follow an ideology that does not have racism, hate and intolerance, supression, supremacism and suppression of females in it'S most profound scriptures. I fail to see that in the Quran. Muhammad became the more a tyrannic brutal warcriminal the older he became. You probably know how Turkey's Attatürk referred to him in utmost disgust and antipathy. That such a man like Muhammad, with his violent biography, is seen as a founder of a relion preaching peace and tgolerance and kindness, is an affront to reasonable thinking and an offence to any sane mind. You could as well call Stalin a liberal humanist or Hitler a candidate for the peace Nobel prize. If Muhammad would still be alive today, we should send him to The Hague, or Guantanamo. No matter where - we would lock him away, to protect our children and give them hope for a better future not messed up by this man.

There aren't any religion which teach to be a terrorist. If you really know Islam, actually you would agree. Personally, I wouldn't call Mr. Breivik is a Christian terrorist. I believe Christian didn't teach such a thing. He is just a terrorist. And also I wouldn't call Osama or other people is a Islam terrorist, because Islam didn't teach such a thing that he does, killing innocent people. And for another example, I've read an article that an Arabian girl who was married a European man was killed by her family. That isn't Islam do even if the girl was converted to another religion. But it is true that such thing is a failure to teach her properly about Islam. But, it isn't an excuse to kill her. It's just the family felt embarrassed.

Sorry, on apostacy by Shariah law is the death penalty. That is Islam, truely and in full. Skipping on that is not in conformity with Islam

I think it is wise not to judge people from religion, race, country, etc. Just look the individual itself.

I think it is wise to not judge humans on basis of their skin colour and race, but to take into account the social and cultural climate and environment they grew up in and that most likely has had an effect on their worldview and education, and I urgently press people to look very closely at what religion people claim to follow. Relgion too long has been given the benefit of doubt, and iot took all benefits and allowed no doubts. Theistic religion is the biggest tyrant in human history, and it is dripping with blood. To hell with it, and all names it has given to its idols and deities.

P.S. German has just suspended its first police inspector who abused his position on behalf of the salafist movement which in Germany is seen as a threat to the constitutional order and is under surveillance by intelligence service and that Staatsschutz. The man most likely will get fired from service, and most likely will go to the court, since infiltration of the social institutions as well as the security structures of the state is of utmost priority for Salafist and other Muslim colonists wanting Sharia law in Germany. During riots Salafists have attacked policemen with knifes and intentionally stabbed three of them, several dozen police officers got wounded in the ongoing riot. There are charges over attempted murder, and arrests. Riots broke out because the Salafists are running a campaign in the streets to distribute one Quran per household in germany, but had a problem with a counter movement protesting against a Salafi mosque and held up signs repeating the famous Danish bomb-in-a-turban cartoon.

It's so good to have guests like this who respect the house right of the owner and behave accordingly.

Primitives. Dangerous, unscrupullous, underhanded - but still just primitives.