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Old 03-20-12, 03:04 AM   #7
Catfish
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I do not agree with that the US is owing "them" (Iran) something, for 1979.
Then maybe Argentina also owes the US something for 9/11, 1973 ? Or the Philipines ? Or the Indians ?
This all was generations ago, and people talking about "not to forget history" often (!) only want to stir the pot, for their own revenge.
Because, imho, few have ever really (!) learned from history.

Iran had been built up as a bulwark against communism by the west, its army in the 1970ies was the 4th biggest worldwide, armed by a lot of western nations including Germany b.t.w.. Oil was also important, at that time it was more british BP than US companies, but ...
The main enemy then was communism, the USSR and its influence, not Islam. Against that, there was Israel.

As well the forced inthronization by the west, of Shah (king) Reza Pahlewi, did not go well with the iranian population, especially when he began to kill and torture his own subjects en masse. He was just a very bad dictator, much worse than Saddam Hussein, but if the devil himself was anti-communist the west would have welcomed him.

Which is what i meant with Ayatollah Khomeini would never have stood a chance, if the iranian people would not have been harrassed by its own government before - this was pure despair, and they wanted to get rid of the Shah. They blamed the Shah on those who had inthronized him - the west. Big chance for a religious, or at least anti-western regime.
(This is also what i mean with we have not really learned from history, "we" are still mostly supporting the wrong nations, and the wrong regimes - Libya was the first time done better, but the west was not used to support the people other than militarily, and just overslept the chance of taking influence on a democratic birth of a new republic)

And on the contrary to the "usual revolutions", the one in Iran was a relatively unbloody one - sure the military shot at demonstrants, but instead of running away there were more deomstrants by the minute, filling up the rows without shooting, until the commanders (wisely) decided to retreat to the barracks instead of massacring their own people.

Imho the iranian regime still justifies its own reign by the deeds of the Shah.
A better idea than bombing would be to strategically place persons at the right points, and slowly convince the people of a better way of life. As said before, most Iranians do not have anything against the US, or Israel. Just tell them, convince, also admit faults and failures in the past, generate trust and reliance, exchange students. If this is done properly and sustainably, any unfree regime will overthrow itself in the long run.
This, is certainly not the short fuse solution the media or whoever are wanting us to believe is necessary.


Israel: Other than the US, they face a threat directly and have to act accordingly. But why don't they try to alter the perception of "the arabs" instead of cluster-bombing and assassinating everything thus generating more hate and terrorists ? What is with clandestine operations, changing from within ? Those student exchanges i mentioned, civilian spy jobs (well i take it they do, but to what extent?), or just talk and exchange well-nown persons like actors, spokesman, whatever. Certainly this is not easy, but Israel has shown it is intelligent enough and could - with the political will.

Certainly even for non-religious western young (dumb) folks it is easier to follow those left slogans and beliefs like how "jews kill innocent arabs and drive them from their land", and then settling there. The problem is this is easier to understand for a dumbnut than what lies behind. In the long run, there can only be the chance of education, for the arabian generations to come. So why do not help them and fill the vacuum ? You will storm open doors ..

Even if Israel makes a necessary military strike, why are they content to then hold back and wait for the next threat to happen ? Why don't they actively act bilaterally civilian and militarily, trying to convince ? I understand especially jews do not want to wait, not wanting to act the victim anymore after centuries of pursuit and being conveniently blamed for all by others, but i think they will not succeed if they do not build up a second branch of civilian persuasion.


I still do not know what you mean with China and Iran, as a reason for war between the US, and Iran ? A substitute war, a warning ?
Iran selling oil for Yen ?
Or is it Israel asking the US to help ?
While the cynical idea of the weapons industry needing a new playground and a pretext for funding the military, i am not convinced this alone is the truth ?

Last edited by Catfish; 03-20-12 at 04:01 AM.
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