[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by DAB

You'd be suprissed I think how often I do walk into Mosques. I think you'd also be supprised how confident I am that if I did say that...people would get the joke.

Yes, I would.

From the King James Version....

I'd start with Leviticus 20 - with its classic and immortal line on Homosexuality.

What about it? The Torah views homosexuality as a capital crime. No one versed in Halachah (Jewish legal code), disagrees. There's no room for interpretation.

Having said that, ask yourself:

1. Why has there not been a single case case of carried out capital punishment by a Jewish court of law for over some 2200 years now? The answer is because with the degradation of morality within the Jewish nation in those time, came a response from the judges themselves and the rabbis of the times that such cases should no longer be tried because massive executions is NOT the goal of the Torah and its laws. BTW, even murderers, which I think we can all agree upon that their crime is abhorent (though we may disgaree on the punishment they deserve), cannot be executed upon a guilty verdict, from that time until this day.

Compare this history and the facts that bear it to Islam's sanctioning of capital punishment non-stop sinc its inception some 1400 years ago.

2. Even if Jewish capital cases still existed, they can only be held in the land of Israel. The only exception would be if another country would permit such court cases within their sovereign territory. Never did happen and I don't expect it will. And again, capital punishment cannot be meted out today anywhere.

Islam requires all capital cases to be tried anywhere and at any which time. Any country under Islamic rule (Sha'aria), will carry out such executions on those found guilty.

3. There is no Jewish concept of imposing Jewish law on non-Jews anywhere outside of the land of Israel.

I quoted for you Quran 9:29 above but you laughed at me. Control of other countries, the imposition there of Islamic law and the subjugation of its inhabitants that do not convert are a basic tennet of Islam and have been in practice from the start of Islam until present day.

4. There is no concept of actively proselytizing non-Jews to seek their conversion.

Islam, like much of the Christian world, is big on proselytization and employs numerous methods of persuasion and force to achieve that goal.

Then there is the wonderful Leviticus 24:20 which suggests all sorts of wonderful things. One would imagine that the amputation of limbs, the gouging out of eyes and all sorts of other forms of Justice are allowed because of this. After all, God says its all right

Never has there been a Jewish court, rabbi or legal authority that took "an eye for an eye, etc." literally.

Judaism's law code is based on a foundation of the written law, the Torah, and the oral law, both handed down to Moses at Sinai. The oral law here has never been disputed.

There might be an exception. The Kaarites and possibly the Sadducees may have taken these verses literally. However, I don't believe there's any documentation that they carried such literal punishments out.

Even if they did, be aware that mainstream Judaism does not even view Kaarites, Saduccees and similar sects of old, as part of the Jewish nation. They are easily seperable as them versus us.

You'll find a few Kaarites still lingering around the world today. Holler if you feel threatened.

Now I must admit I don't understand Leviticus 24:22... perhaps you could help me there.

Not sure what you're referring to. Here are verses 21 and 22:

21. And one who injures an animal shall pay for it. And one who strikes a person shall be put to death.
22. One law shall be exacted for you, convert and resident alike, for I am the Lord, your God.

The last half of verse 21 is referring to a murderer, not someone who slaps you silly in the face.

Verse 22 is referring to the application of the Jewish code of law, in these cases, to all Jewish residents of the land of Israel, whether born Jewish or converts.

Leviticus 25:44 - the enslaving of non-believers...well I never.

Neither have I. Again, ask yourself why the practice of "slavery" has not been seen in the Jewish nation and in Jewish law for some 3000 years now.

But again, look into Jewish law - not subject to interpretation amongst us adherent Jews - and you wind up with the following:

The Ultimate Glamour Slammer
"If you buy a Jewish slave..." (Leviticus 21:2)

McKean Federal Correctional Facility in Pennsylvania, USA reminds visitors of a college campus. It's housed in a low-profile building, decorated inside in a gray and salmon Navajo motif. Inmates stroll on concrete walkways to classes in basic reading skills, masonry, carpentry, horticulture, barbering, cooking and catering.

In August 1962, Kerala, India opened its first prison without walls. Viewed as an experiment, the prison holds 280 of Kerala's 5,308 prisoners. The open prison is known for treating prisoners with respect and entrusting them with responsibilities for work on the rubber plantation, personal chores and cooperation within the prison community. To date, there has been only one repeat offender.

And a revolution is taking place inside San Francisco's Jail No. 7 and Jail No. 8, known as the "glamour slammer." The 700 cons inside, doing time for everything from drug possession to armed robbery, mostly stay in open dormitories and spend up to 12 hours each day in some of over 50 separate treatment, counseling, training and education programs. Prisoners can join counseling groups, such as Tools for Healing, Drama Therapy, or take yoga and meditation classes. The idea is to break the cycle of violence by transforming the typical jailhouse culture of humiliation and violence into one of dignity and healing.

In this week's Torah portion we learn of the eved ivri. Eved ivri is usually translated as "a Hebrew slave". However, an eved ivri is a far cry from the typical picture of a slave. For starters, his maximum period of indenture is six years. It is forbidden to give him demeaning labor such as putting shoes on his master. His master must share whatever food he has with his 'slave'. If the master eats white bread, he may not give his slave dark bread. If he drinks wine he may not give his slave water. If he sleeps on a soft bed he may not give his slave straw on which to sleep.

Not only that, but if the master only has one pillow, the slave gets the pillow. And should the slave become ill and costs his master hefty medical bills, he owes his master nothing when he leaves. Some slavery!

How does a Jew become a 'slave'? One way is if someone steals and cannot afford the restitution that the Torah mandates, then the Bet Din sells the thief to reimburse the victim of the theft. However, rather than locking up the thief and exposing him to all deleterious influences that a jail encourages, he is placed in the most positive of environments – a Jewish family home. Rather than subject his family to shame and starvation, the Torah requires the master to not only care for the slave but to support the thief's family as well.

In fact, the master must provide his slave with such excellent conditions that it may seem that rather than acquire a slave, the master has acquired for himself a master.

As enlightened as recent prison reforms may be, they hardly compare with the Torah's emphasis on rehabilitation, for three thousand years ago the Torah had already instituted the ultimate glamour slammer.


Real brutes, we Jews are, hey?

If I can ever find a copy of the Giddions Bible I was shown once, I'll be happy. I seem to recall a wonderful part of Leviticus there which suggests that rape is alright if you promise the father of your victim that you will marry them.

Only with the victim's consent. That is, if she wants to be married to this guy the rest of their lives, he's stuck with her. Not the other way around.

Other than that exception, forced marriages are against Jewish law. That applies equally to men and to women.

There were and still are problems with "arranged" marriages, in small ultra-religious circles. Amazingly, these marriages work out a great percentage of the time. But again, these marriages, when they don't work out, make victims out of both the husbands and the wives. An equal opportunity fiasco. I personally know of only 1 or 2 such cases, verses the 100s of couples who meet and marry under normal circumstances. And we all know that normal marriages don't always end up with the couple living happily ever after anyway.

But lets get to the point shall we. You will suggest that these quotes are taken out of context and anyway, the bible is open to interpretation.

Only to a limited extent. And even when there are different interpretations, they are on very detailed points. It is extremly rare to see 180 degree mirror opinions of any of the Torah's commandments. Please find such a case for me. My mind is drawing a blank.

Not so, Islam. What it says it what they do. It is the word of Allah and there are scriptual and historical precedents for Islamic religious scholars to back themselves up.

So why not give the Korran a break and give its readers the same degree of credit you (and I for that matter) claim for yourself

Well you decide, based on responses above, whether there really is a comparison or not and whether there is a threat of Torah weilding Jews forcefully (or otherwise) imposing Jewish laws and customs upon the rest of the world and blowing up their trains, planes, office buildings and hotels when they don't get their way.

I am super busy today. I will not be able to respond to any other posts or follow ups until tomorrow night or Sunday.