[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Whether you can claim damages when arrested as innocents depends on the reason for your arrest.You find a claim perfecrly understandable, I doubt very much whether they have a case, to put it mildly... One of the Muslims later declared that after the arrest he understood that his behaviour had caused some alarm. He should have shown that understanding before...

I don't think they have a case, either. But I do understand their desire to take legal action.

You ask if foreign customs are illegal nowadays, when I only - jokingly - suggested that the Dutch Railroad system could claim damages.

You say jokingly now, but it was not apparent in your post. On internet forums it is customary to throw out a smiley or two to show that a comment was made in jest or tongue in cheek. And based on your previous posts, I had every reason to believe you were dead serious.

Again you are completely missing the point. Nobody here is talking about criminal law, anything "illegal", or not respecting religious freedom. I was - half seriously - suggesting a civil claim for damages. To give you an example: when I leave my backpack with a ticking alarm clock in a bus, metro or train, whether in Amsterdam, New York, Paris or London I am not doing anything illegal. However I might well caused huge delays and damages to the public transportation system and its many passengers. Of course those can claim those damages.

Fair point, but applied in this case would be the same as to say, "sorry, but your kind just look so awfully scary when you carry anything that could potentially hold a bomb". There is supposed to be equality for the law, and if a couple of white people had been arrested under similar circumstances, most people would say the police overreacted.

Originally Posted by Kissaki

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: a society that refuses to open up to outside influences will stagnate.

You add the accusation that a society that is not open to outside influences will stagnate. If you mean Holland, your remark proves that you have no knowledge at all about the openness of Dutch society.[/quote]

I did not mean Holland, or any country in specific. The comment was directed at you, because you advocate shutting the door to foreign impulses which are too different from your own culture.

You are defending a point of view that nobody - me the least - is attacking.

Well, you did say "The point is that certain outdated cultural habits (it has nothing to do with freedom of religion) are not acceptable or not accepted by modern Dutch society". And you also suggested that by wearing their traditional clothings the Muslims were "confronting" the general public with their religion. What they did - or as the case is, wore - is not a confrontation in my book. What if a Maori was show up with his face full of tribal tattoos? Would he be confronting people with his culture? It's not like he can take them off. Similarly, removing all trappings of faith is not an option for many a religious person either. Should they hide their religion as if they were ashamed?

As far as I'm concerned, the problem is that many people haven't been assimilated to these new cultures yet. And yes, it is my opinion that assimilation is not purely the responsibility of the newcomer. As "old-timers" (for lack of a better word), it is our responsibility to realize that prople from foreign cultures are bound to have foreign habits, and we should accept that. They assimilate as much as they need to, but we shouldn't really expect more than that.

Really getting in the mood, you take the next step attacking me, by saying

Nobody, me the least, has been talking about persecuting innocent people at all.

You have already forgotten what you wrote, I see. So I'll remind you:

"The lawyers of the Dutch Railroad are not considering a legal claim for damages against the two Muslims... which would really be the long term solution for the problem: they are obviously in Holland because they prefer the better living to their own country, so let them pay for the damages that introducing their own country's habits caused the Dutch society."

Sure, now you say that you were only joking. Or half-joking. But if my reaction was a misunderstanding, it is one for which you are responsible. I still can't see anything in that paragraph that would suggest you were joking.

Your next line is exaggeration beyond comprehension. If my - short lived - irritation for utterly un-Dutch behaviour in public like practicing religious rituals in a train is considered by you as nothing less but discriminatory "martial law" against the Muslim segment of the Dutch population, you utterly lost me...

If you advocate that certain people may be detained for no good reason, that ethnicity is sufficient "probable cause", that is definitely a trait of martial law. You say now - now - that you weren't really serious, but how was I or anyone else to know? And really, if this was a misunderstanding on my part, what are you getting upset about?

I think you either need to apologise for making a farce of and lack of respect for my opinion or take a Prozac and calm down...

I am not the one getting all huffy and puffy here. You said yourself that what you wrote was the product of your "short-lived irritation for utterly un-Dutch behaviour in public", and that's your big mistake. Never post in anger. You have no idea how long I spend on some of these posts because I have to moderate myself. Sometimes I scrap my own post altogether if it serves no other purpose than to vent my feelings.

As for the farce comment... If you think I'm going to apologize for mistakes you're responsible for, you've got another think coming.

As you will understand I really have difficulty taking the content of your posting serious.

Hmmm... You demand that I respect your opinion, but here you admit to not taking me seriously. Tell me, how would you view such a person?

Neither do you, as your response to The Avon Lady clearly shows...

I always enjoy a good and fair fight, and Avon Lady gives me that. Whether I agree with her or not, I like and respect her - if anyone can give me a good run for my money, she's it. And whether you choose to believe me or not, I do respect you as well, as well as every single poster on this forum. This is because no one has done something so outrageous as to cause total loss of respect. However, I do not care much for your temper, and you are in no position to demand an apology when you manage to hurl insults in the very same sentence.