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Originally Posted by caspofungin
@abraham
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In a sense it is really worrysome that people in 21th century Europe feel the urge and the freedom to perform these 7th century totally outdated religious rituals
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i thought the modern judaeo-christian tradition was all about individual freedoms. are those freedoms limited to certain segments of society? |
No Caspofungin, those freedoms are for all to enjoy. Therefor nobody will stop these young Muslims from going to a mosque and perfroming their religious duties. What they did is not even frobidden by law and they were of course set free. But it shows total indifference and lack of understanding of Dutch culture to confront others with religious rituals especially under the current circumstances. Some passengers were really scared. If you want to integrate and behave like a 'proper' Dutchman, you keep your personal religion where it belongs, in your personal domain and/or your local house of worship. They could have washed themselves at home, couldn't they?
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Originally Posted by caspofungin
Outdated religious rituals -- like baptism, or using a rosary in prayer, or kneeling to pray, or singing in church? Religious rituals are an integral part of any religion.
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I wouldn't call baptism, praying and singing outdated rituals. And they are very much allowed, of course, for any religion.
Though it would not scare other passengers if somebody would start praying a rosary in the middle of a traintrip, because the obvious connection with terrorism wouldn't be there, it would certainly raise eyebrows and lack of understanding, just as most spontanous public displays of religious rituals would.
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Originally Posted by caspofungin
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they are obviously in Holland because they prefer the better living to their own country, so let them pay for the damages that introducing their own country's habits caused the Dutch society.
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maybe that's part of the problem. maybe those 2 guys were born and raised in holland. maybe they served in the dutch military. maybe they see themselves as good dutch citizens. |
That's a real long shot, with all those maybe's...
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Originally Posted by caspofungin
... but yourself and the majority of your countrymen will never see them as dutch -- they'll always be "immigrants" even if they've been born there, or at best "dutchmen of arabic origin."
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If they do not integrate - which is not the same as assimilate, yes. If they try to be Dutchmen they will be regarded as such by most Dutch.
Just as the new generation of blacks and Hindustans from Surinam origin is almost totally integrated and regarded as real Dutch.
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Originally Posted by caspofungin
i've only visited holland once (nice place) but i was born and raised in the uk. but if i walk into a pub, with my dark skin and my "funny" name, the first assumption that some people -- probably the majority -- leap to is that i'm from somewhere else. No matter what ive done for or feel for my country, there's always going to be that element of being a stranger in your own home.
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I sincerely think that's very much up to yourself and your behaviour, as far as Holland is concerned. If you would speak Dutch and be dressed in a casual way, nobody would give a damn about the colour of your skin or your "funny" name. If you would add that you are Muslim, people would say: "Well, nice" and continue to talk about Ajax and the weather.
You would however attrack some mild attention if you would speak Arab and walk around in 7th century re-enactment gear and you might certainly experience the feeling of being a stranger in your own place, but then, if you behave like that it's not your own place, because you have not made the cultural connectionand make a statement of it.
By the way, if I would make a habit from walking around in futuristic Star Trak-clothing I would probably experience the same reactions.
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Originally Posted by caspofungin
is it any surprise that some people are going to fill that vacuum of needing to belong to something greater than your individual self by identifying more strongly with a rreligios community than the secular society that seems to "reject" them?
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No, but then again, knowing the Dutch attitude towards immigrants over the past decades - which has been leaning backwards to make people feel at home and equally treated - I am deeply convinced that the rejection came from those fundamentalists first and foremost and then triggered a predictable response from the average Dutchman. As you said pointedly: "isolationism can come from both sides of a cultural divide."