Quote:
Originally Posted by joegrundman
OK, you show a map of Poland from 16th/17th century - please explain why that particular map is relevant. Borders and populations were always in flux - is that map showing the 'definitive' Poland in your opinion?
By your remarks about stolen western provinces - are you saying that a slice of post ww1 germany was not forcibly given to Poland and the German inhabitants dispossessed? ie not an area that declared itself to be Poland after ww1. Why not give us your informed and calm opinion rather than your Polish Patriotic Rage opinion. Some of us may be interested
also you mention todays Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. Please explain. What about them?
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every time there is a discussion about "stolen" lands, the western Polish border is always mentioned as the key argument. The problem with the these lands is that they were in conflict dating back to the rise of Poland which is the late 10th century. First Polish kings fought many battles against German land lords, princes, kings and emperors for these lands. There were periods of time-like 300+ years when Poland was deprived of these lands. There were shorter periods of time when "Germany (or the German Empire and their vassals) had no control over them. If you look at culture there there is no doubt that these lands became more German than Polish because of several factors like increased settlement etc. So I'm not trying to persuade you that they belong to Poland longer than to Germany, on the contrary but they never belong to either only Germany or only Poland.
The map which I've posted shows not a short "flux" but the range of Polish political and social influences in that period. The lands southern of todays Poland were not an outcome of some war, crusade against pagans etc but a well established settlements belonging to Polish gentry and under the legal control of the Polish kings. The fact I mentioned the countries like Ukraine etc: 50% of Ukraine was Polish- actually, in the Medieval times there was NO such a country like Ukraine. Face it- those lands were divided between Poland and todays Russia (also not a good name but w/e). Belarus- no such a country. Lithuania- no such a country- maybe in lesser degree than the Ukraine case but still- Polish kings owned these lands. Hungary, Moldovia- check that map once again and compare it with a contemporary map. Why the heck the debate always spins around "lands stolen from Germany" ?? Besides, the borders were established during the Jalta conference- blame your bloody leader Roosevelt who was so bloody submissive that he decided to agree on Stalin's choice. After that conference Poland gained much of the lands but lost much more on the east side. Can't give you precise numbers tho. I'm not an enraged anti-semite but a few weeks ago the Polish public opinion has ended the discussion about Poles selling Jewish families, digging the graves near ex-concentration camps searching for gold, golden teeth and jewels. So I'm kinda tired of accusing Poland for everything bad which happened to Jews here. Sorry- we didn't start that war, we lost it (50 years of communism) and we are tired of listening to the whining about what they left here. Send the bills to Berlin or Moscow.