[Abraham]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

and my point is that even at the high points of greek democracy, they limited the vote to certain segments of society. and kept slaves. and regarded all other societies as, literally, barbarians (the word comes from how the greeks thought non-greeks sounded like).

I don't think that detracts from their progressiveness.
In the Athenian democratic model the whole male population had the right to vote and there was an elaborate system of representation and checks and balances.
Slavery was seen as a natural phenomenon and slaves were often held in (high) esteem.
You should not look at ancient cultures without realising were they came from and were we have come from since.
And 'barbaros' means nothing else but 'stranger', 'non-Greek' or 'not belonging to the Greek culture'. Its current meaning says more about the high develloped Greek culture then about the Greek attitude towards non-Greeks.

Originally Posted by caspofungin

and how can the arabs catch up? i don't know. i'm not one of those people that say, "oh, you can't force democracy on people that aren't ready for it." i mean, the statement is true, but i think the arabs are ready for democracy. the problem is, what's the west going to do if they end up voting for a non-secular society? A society based on islamic laws? are they going to respect that country and its laws? or call it backward and ignorant, and try for a regime change?

These are indeed the real questions.
As long as (fundamental) Islam forbids any theoretical criticism on its position towards the separation of State and Religion, I don't see much progress for Arab political thinking beyond the narrow limits of the 7th century Arab peninsula. I really wonder whether the Arabs are ready for democracy. At least they should start thinking about it and put religion back where it belongs, in the personal realm.
Your question, caspofungin, is what the West would do if democracy leads to a non-secular society based on Islamic laws.
My answer is that the West should respect that.
My question is more relevant for democracy in the Muslim world: What happens if democracy votes away a society based on Islamic laws? Will democracy prevail or will there be some 'Guardians of the Faith' who will kill democracy as soon as it leads to real Arab progress? Are they going to respect the will of the people?

Originally Posted by caspofungin

nothing is going to change as long as the west is interfering in a haphazard, hypocritical manner. how can you claim to be all about democracy, to the extent of starting a war, when all the key allies in the region are monarchies or dictatorships, propped up with western muscle or money?

Very true, but politics is the offspring of hypocrisy anywhere, isn't it?

Originally Posted by caspofungin

because that's what the average arab person sees. a two-faced display of hypocrisy and greed, politics at its worst. and somehow they're supposed to think that the democratic system that allows such bs is what's best for them?

If they want progress, democracy and Human Rights, they should not sit and wait for changes from abroad but should study Europe's struggle towards progress, democracy and Human Rights and act!