[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Penguin

First there is a little too much Dark-Fish-bashing here for my taste - I don't see him as an immigrant-hating madman who wants to promote a germanic master race. I think of him more in terms of a patriotic socialist - yes this is not a contradiction, there have been many of them, Willy Brandt being Germany's most famous example. I understand his way of thinking, that's why I said he can do better than over-generalisation.

Thanks for your support. I think of myself exactly like that as well.

The Dutch always had a reputation of being a very liberal and tolerant society. Did the mentality change overnight, or isnt it much more that people learn from many negative experiences? I believe the latter.

I don't know for sure of course as I weren't there, but as far as I know the public opinion about immigrants used to be much better. If the opinion changed by coincidence, or by bad experiences? Who knows but the latter is certainly more likely.

There has always been migration to Germany, especially here in the Rhineland. A paper here had a series some time ago: why we have the most beautiful women here: it comes from thousands of years of mixing. We had the Romans here, the French, dozends of other visitors in the 30 year war. Then the immigration from eastern europe, mainly Poland in the 19th century, after WW2 many others.

I agree we've got the most beautiful girls
But is that because our girls are really more beautiful than girls from other "races", or because we've grown up with our idea of beauty? I think if you'd ask someone from Timbuktu how his ideal women would look like, he'd come up with a very different picture than I would.
Also, is this beauty purely because of all the mixing? If you take the Swedes for example, they've had much less mixing than Dutchmen/West Germans, but IMO their girls are among the most beautiful in the world, only second to Dutch and maybe West German girls.

Of course also the inner-german migration, not to underestimate: many people here are closer to the Dutch than to the Bavarians - in their way of thinking and their cultural norms. This all contributed to the fact that we are a mutt race here and there is a certain mentality here that a stranger is not seen as a threat but as a victim for chit-chat. When you are sitting alone here, people will talk to you.

Which is why I don't really see myself as a "Dutchman" but more as a lower-Rhineland Germanic. I feel myself more connected to Western Germans than for example Frisians or people from Holland.
Countries are just borders. Culture goes way beyond that.

As for the rest of your post, I think I can agree with you. I want to emphasize that I did not mean to generalize that much. Of course there are lots of "good" turks as well.

Also as you say there are other nationalities that are even less integrated and/or more criminal than Turks. But for Germany the Turks are the best example, because AFAIK they are the biggest immigrant group (correct me if I'm wrong here). And as such cause the biggest trouble.

Conclusions: dunno, I am just a grumpy old anti-everything guy...

And I'm just a grumpy young anti-everything guy or what?