[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Did they? There were many gust workers since the 50s, from Jugoslavia, Greece, Italy, Turkey. Most Yugos, Greek and Italians sooner or later went back and never had the itnention to stay forever, and those who stayed all in all generally are well-integrated. Just the Turks came to stay forever, and one must doubt yopur claim that they tried toi integrate from beginning on. They stayed separate from beginning on, and this separatism is the reason why parallel society formed up which isolated themselves from German main society. This found its impression in fialing school education for the offsprings from these families, even more since these parents are not used to help in school-educating their kids like it is necessary, not helping them to adopt foreign customs and culture, and did not care much for what happened at sachool. Result: lower chances for school diploma, and job chances. Social decline. Result from that: growing isolationism, a group feeling of "us" against "them". "Us" means "us poor Muslim victims, the reatest and most misunderstood victims of all history", "them" means "those pig-eating hell-doomed Scheißdeutsche", "those German slutty whores" that make "so marvellous a f#ck". At the same time they are refused in their Turkish home country as well.

And then comes Mr. Islam and says: "By simply converting to my teaching or being an obedient vasall to me, you will no longer a looser, but belong to a special group of people that will rule the world and that are preferred by God that loves them, and you will be loved by all your brothers and sisters and you will be the Herren of the world to which all other humans that are infidels are inferior, and must bow their knees". Dadda-Bang! Bull's Eye! All for free! As a Muslim, all of a sudden you are somebody, from nothing to jackpot in no time!

Turks form the overwhelming majority of Muslim people in Germany. There must be reason why in Germany other foreigners try better to imntegrate and for the most are better integrated and are not overreporesented in negative statistics (education, job, crime), like Muslim groups. It is not that Germans said: "Back then we kicked the Jews, no we slap the Muslims".

Has it ever come to your mind that not only they do not wish to integrate,m but that germans have a good reason to remain sceptical of them anbd not wanting them in return? The social engineering experiment of turning the totalitarian, moncultural ideology of Islam into a tolerant, multicultural message of peaceful living togteher on the basis of equal rights not only for Islam (which constantly demands special status and special rights), but for ALL, has failed not becasue Germans slap all migrants. we have massive problems not with migrants in general, but with Muslim migrants - a majority of them. And it has become an extremely costly economical problem as well.



You might be surprised that these are often those Muslims who were willing to integrate, were caring indeed for their kids getting good education - and who were warning the Germans time and again that they were too illusianl and too soft on not demanding the non-integrating Turks to integrate nevertheless, and sanctionise them if they do not. They tell us they we are too forgiving, and that we have a wrong, too friendly view of Islam! They see no chan ce for themselves in ermany due to the overburdened social systems and the fact that the non-integrating Muslims are those who defione the rules of how Muslim migrants behave in Germany. It is fair to say that many of those leaving Germany, not only flee from German intolerance, but flee from their own people.

BTW, we have a general brain drain and craftsmen drain in Germany, due to the bad labour market and low wages, if jobs are to be gotten. Especially doctors and craftsmen flee from Germany in significant numbers.



I realsie there are in diovidual exceptions from the rule. But they are not the majority, but a minority, and not even a big minority. They are not loud enough (cannot or do not wish to be) to keep those who actively refuse integration and demand special rights given to Turks and Islam in check. The active propagators of the non-integrators, also are not the majority. The majority are the many who hide and duck and stay silent and separate, passively refusing integration and relativisation of their Turkish values while living in a German cultural context. But this slent majority is a majority the activists can reliably count on - becasue by not dojng anatyhing against them the silent ones allow the activists to speak in their name and form the official "voice" of Islam in Germany. The political-Islamic panel the government has introduced two years ago, is dominated by the speakers from the Turkish national religion ministry (it'S proxy agencies in Germany), and small groups representing almost completely extremely radical groups and organisations - that do not officially speak fpor the majority of Muslims in Germany, but claim to do so. And the politicians accept, this, have banned several competent Muslim Islam-critics from the board for disturbing the illusion of peace and mutual tolerance, and swallow the lies the radicals are pouring into their ears. That way, the understanding of what Islam is and wants, gets constantly distorted and concealed. The silent majority, and the educated, integrated minority, do not much agaiunst this, if anything at all. Anbd where they do or apostates raise their voice from their ranks, warning thre Germans of trusting Islam and giving ground to it, they get bashed and witch-hunted through the village - not by Muslims, but the German left and the Greens and the Multikulti-faction and the PC brigade and the Eurocrats, and the german self-labelled pseudo-intellectual "elites", and of course the editors in the feuilletons of the newspapers.

I've read all these articles in newspapers as well, over the time bringing up all those arguments you listed here. I mention this not to discredit your post, but to make clear I am pretty much aware of all the arguments brought forward in the general debate over immigration over the time. It's not a new debate, after all. However, claiming that all Turks came to stay indefinitely without ever willing to integrate is a bit over the top, to say the least. I'd rather say each individual turks had his own indivifual reason for doing things, just like modern germans emmigrating to other countries have their very own reasons for doing this. To make this out to be a concerted effort with some kind of master plan behind it which all Turks kinda followed is bold. I'd rather say this has more to do with Anatolian patriarch structures in many parts of the folks that came here then Islam, far removed from todays problems of radical Islam. The youth here today living their prtoblematic muslim lives are completely different from the folks that came here 40 or 50 years ago.

However, by now I pretty much started to distrust medias that have a growing tendency to write what ppl want to hear to get a better shareholder value by simply repeating and copying themselves then through thorough investigation, which pretty much leaves people to judge from personal experience.
And frankly, I yet have to meet a radical muslim. Thinking about it, I met more radical germans (aka NeoNazis) then radical Muslims. I also heared of more murder and acts of violence by Neonazis then the other way around. Yet they hardly dominate the news. A little tidbit also making me a bit suspicion about the motives behind the current muslim debate. Is this really about basic human rights and their acceptance or is it about foreign influences into German society and if there is a muezzin instead of a bell, and above all scapegoats over the current economic and political system crisis? Would not be a first one given Europes history since ancient times.
Both, btw, bells and muezins are getting onto my nerves, actually and I would instantly support a ban on either. Not on cultural grounds, but simply because I like it quiet on a Sunday.
Those questions should be cleared up before going on.

This is the first time I also ever heared about numbers in regards to the radicals and not integrating turks being a majority. I do not reject it, either, but I'd like to see some hard facts here. Any sources handy? Because it certainly does not reflect personal experiences.

I should also add that I couldn't care less of being german or living by german values. If people are cool, they are cool, if people are idiots, they are idiots, that is pretty much unrelated to ethnic or cultural background. Currently living in Frankfurt as a hotspot for foreign immigration gives some first hand experiences in people no matter where they come from. Besides, I yet have to hear a single propper definition of what German actually is, and please don't come up with Prussian values here. I respect those, but hardly consider them german, the same way bavarian drinking traditions hardly are german.

The one thing were I am completed on your side is a general decline in intellectual capability in recent decades, as it is less and less about long term solution seeking but short term emotional satisfaction. It's by far not a german problem alone these days when looking at the US, the UK, France and other countries with a more liberal tradition, but that hardly makes it any better. This change of attitude pretty much dominates every topic, be it the Euro, Europe, immigration, education etc. Demanding of others to completely assimilate while oneself staying home sipping a beer quite belongs to this. That is just going from the liberal extremes of the 80ies multikulti right to the other extreme; and neither does the situation any justice. As long this is about a superficial anaylsis of how all muslims are taking advantage of the german system while not willing to integrate WITHOUT also taking into account the problematics on the German side the debate will go in circles without a solution in sight. Societies never stay staitic, there is constant change and immigration into Germany is not a new phenomenon. In fact, it is as old as this very land itself.

And that is what the debate is about, right? Solutions? You won't find those with those constant blame games, be it immigrants, intellectuals, feuilletons or whatever.

Finally. The whole debate over muslim motives, and I am not talking radical islam here, but everyday muslim, kinda implies a concious throught process on the side of this religious group in regards to immigration. However, it is more probable those folks came here and just went along the development by adjusting to the presented conditions based on their own cultural upbringing and expiriences. To counter this, this process would have to be analyzed. You know, good old science and intellectual deduction instead of emotional rants. I always thought this ability is what makes the West stand apart from most of the rest of the world. Defending enlightenment by dropping to the levels of it's attackers kinda does not make sense.