SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - Ongoing power outages in Russia have Putin fuming

Catfish · 01-02-11, 08:46 AM

Hello XabbaRus,

"Ah lovely speech."
"Thanks"

Polemical, may be. But i somehow miss strong reactions from inside Russia and around the world regarding a lot of things going on in Russia. It is always accepted that P. does his best to steer Russia clear and make it a prosperous and democratic country. I just cannot quite believe that.

"... Sure the Khodorkovsky trial is political ..."
Yes but not even that, it is all about power, money, and personal insult as Putin sees it.

" ... he like the rest is a crook. ..."
Chodorkovski ? Maybe, but then all oil-company leaders worldwide are exactly that. Imprison them all then ? Maybe a good idea

" ... Only thing is he was either too naieve or too self confident to realise he had to either get out the country or do an Abromovich and just get on with it. ..."
Overly self-confident i agree, i remember this photo where he is almost posing like an african potentate on his throne, just missing the leopard-cap. But those accusations and this "process" along with the general conduct of dealing with other critics is nothing i would put any trust in.

" ...I agree the trial is a sham but on the other hand Khodorkovsky thought he was bigger than the system. I don't believe that he or Berezovsky were interested in a "free decmocracy" or "free speech" until it suited him. ..."
It is a sham, and there is not even a meager effort to make this a believable show = clear hint to other upstarts who want to put up with Putin. Not put up with democracy or the state, but with Putin. For him this is a personal thing, Ch. challenged him or so he sees it.

" ... However you are accusing Putin of ordering the trial, ..."
Yes, this is obvious. As usual it helps to think about whom serves such a conduct most.

" ... which I can agree with to the extent that he ordered he be investigated but what proof do you have that Putin had anything to do with Politovskaya's murder. ..."
Anything ? You do not honestly ask this ?

EDIT: it may well be it was directly ordered by Chechnya's then prime minister Ramzan Kadyrov who himself was strongly supported by Putin. Kadyrov's assistant told P.: "Someone ought to have shot you back in Moscow, right on the street, like they do in your Moscow". Ramzan Kadyrov repeated after him: "You're an enemy. To be shot...".

" ... Not saying she deserved to be killed ..."
Very nice of you. I would certainly make a list of people who deserved that more, if not necessarily in Russia. Maybe i just entered one else's list.

" ... but she wasn't so lilly white herself. ..."
Really. But she must have had real cojones to criticize Putin, corruption and the russian Mafia. Not so much people around who publicly do that.

" ... As for Litvinenko I can argue how that stinks from the other way too. Like Litvinenko was suddenly a democrat and defender of democracy...."
Well, the former satellite states get their share of russian "care", to put it mildly. And if a former spy dares to defect or talk ... classical HQ reaction.
What i don't understand is that Litvinenko obviously was not guarded well enough, or he was .. by the wrong people.

" ... Oh and Catfish do you really think that the people in power in the west wouldn't like to be able to just click their fingers and have things done. ..."
No, not at all. I do not say that "The West" is so much better. It really goes so far as i would say there is no real democracy in the meaning of the word that really deserves that name today. See Assange. And i also do not want to be judged by others for the actions of my own government.

" ... Though I like Russia don't think I am blind to its problems, but I also don't like polemical statements as your own. ..."
Look i also like Russia and the russian people. But the slightest sympathy for Putin or such governmental action is not what Russia as a nation needs* or deserves. Have you watched those Medjedjev-Putin public dialogue talks about drawbacks or government policies ? Who can take that for real, i ask you ?
I take it the people know damn well what is going on, but they have fear.
As you saying i have no right in judging Russia i agree, but please see that it is the government i criticize and not the people, it is just my personal opinion.

Thanks and greetings,
and a Happy New Year,
Catfish

P.S. About Politovskaya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya

*P.P.S. It may be that Russia indeed needs a Putin to keep terrorists and the Mafia in check - but i belive more in strong ties between them, and i just think the terrorist card has been abused and used to keep critics and the whole population quiet for too long. This latter one is however not alone a russian phenomenon ..

01-02-11, 08:46 AM	#6
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,776 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hello XabbaRus, "Ah lovely speech." "Thanks" Polemical, may be. But i somehow miss strong reactions from inside Russia and around the world regarding a lot of things going on in Russia. It is always accepted that P. does his best to steer Russia clear and make it a prosperous and democratic country. I just cannot quite believe that. "... Sure the Khodorkovsky trial is political ..." Yes but not even that, it is all about power, money, and personal insult as Putin sees it. " ... he like the rest is a crook. ..." Chodorkovski ? Maybe, but then all oil-company leaders worldwide are exactly that. Imprison them all then ? Maybe a good idea " ... Only thing is he was either too naieve or too self confident to realise he had to either get out the country or do an Abromovich and just get on with it. ..." Overly self-confident i agree, i remember this photo where he is almost posing like an african potentate on his throne, just missing the leopard-cap. But those accusations and this "process" along with the general conduct of dealing with other critics is nothing i would put any trust in. " ...I agree the trial is a sham but on the other hand Khodorkovsky thought he was bigger than the system. I don't believe that he or Berezovsky were interested in a "free decmocracy" or "free speech" until it suited him. ..." It is a sham, and there is not even a meager effort to make this a believable show = clear hint to other upstarts who want to put up with Putin. Not put up with democracy or the state, but with Putin. For him this is a personal thing, Ch. challenged him or so he sees it. " ... However you are accusing Putin of ordering the trial, ..." Yes, this is obvious. As usual it helps to think about whom serves such a conduct most. " ... which I can agree with to the extent that he ordered he be investigated but what proof do you have that Putin had anything to do with Politovskaya's murder. ..." Anything ? You do not honestly ask this ? EDIT: it may well be it was directly ordered by Chechnya's then prime minister Ramzan Kadyrov who himself was strongly supported by Putin. Kadyrov's assistant told P.: "Someone ought to have shot you back in Moscow, right on the street, like they do in your Moscow". Ramzan Kadyrov repeated after him: "You're an enemy. To be shot...". " ... Not saying she deserved to be killed ..." Very nice of you. I would certainly make a list of people who deserved that more, if not necessarily in Russia. Maybe i just entered one else's list. " ... but she wasn't so lilly white herself. ..." Really. But she must have had real cojones to criticize Putin, corruption and the russian Mafia. Not so much people around who publicly do that. " ... As for Litvinenko I can argue how that stinks from the other way too. Like Litvinenko was suddenly a democrat and defender of democracy...." Well, the former satellite states get their share of russian "care", to put it mildly. And if a former spy dares to defect or talk ... classical HQ reaction. What i don't understand is that Litvinenko obviously was not guarded well enough, or he was .. by the wrong people. " ... Oh and Catfish do you really think that the people in power in the west wouldn't like to be able to just click their fingers and have things done. ..." No, not at all. I do not say that "The West" is so much better. It really goes so far as i would say there is no real democracy in the meaning of the word that really deserves that name today. See Assange. And i also do not want to be judged by others for the actions of my own government. " ... Though I like Russia don't think I am blind to its problems, but I also don't like polemical statements as your own. ..." Look i also like Russia and the russian people. But the slightest sympathy for Putin or such governmental action is not what Russia as a nation needs* or deserves. Have you watched those Medjedjev-Putin public dialogue talks about drawbacks or government policies ? Who can take that for real, i ask you ? I take it the people know damn well what is going on, but they have fear. As you saying i have no right in judging Russia i agree, but please see that it is the government i criticize and not the people, it is just my personal opinion. Thanks and greetings, and a Happy New Year, Catfish P.S. About Politovskaya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya P.P.S. It may be that Russia indeed needs a Putin to keep terrorists and the Mafia in check - but i belive more in strong ties between them, and i just think the terrorist card has been abused and used to keep critics and the whole population quiet for too long. This latter one is however not alone a russian phenomenon .. Last edited by Catfish; 01-02-11 at 11:21 AM.*